What happened to the new Backcountry cartridges

[snert]

Not necessarily true for the European market or the trucking industry in the US.

Is this why I can't tell the difference between a Corolla, a Civic, a Ford SUV "MUSTANG and a BMW suv, but I can tell the difference between a 67 and a 68 camaro at a glance? Just asking for a friend....

 

[ISS]

I know! The 68 was the first year with side marker lights. The GM and Ford cars and trucks all had lights. Mopars used those little round reflectors that were not actually lights. My 68 Road Runner coupe had them. And a Hemi.

Steel heads date back about 35 years. If I weren't so lazy I would go thru my collection of Handloader & Rifle Magazines and give you the exact date.

 

[snert]

I know! The 68 was the first year with side marker lights. The GM and Ford cars and trucks all had lights. Mopars used those little round reflectors that were not actually lights. My 68 Road Runner coupe had them. And a Hemi.

Steel heads date back about 35 years. If I weren't so lazy I would go thru my collection of Handloader & Rifle Magazines and give you the exact date.

I bet the Hemi made more of a mark than the marker lights!

 

[Fire Dog]

New shooter=Newest toys .

Reminds me of the bumper sticker that reads:
HE WHO DIES WITH THE MOST TOYS…
WINS…!

 

[HandgunHTR]

I don’t know either, but the Hornady machine made it happen for the Creedmoor by spending big money on media circulation.

I keep seeing this assertion, but do you really think that the Creedmoor would be as popular as it is if it didn't live up to at least some of the hype? It has been around for almost 20 years now. Pretty sure it isn't "Marketing" that is keeping it popular.

 

[SteveOak]

Well lets look at it with a little math.

A magnum bolt face (.532) at 65,000 psi has a theoretical bolt thrust of 14,495 lbs.
A standard bolt face (.473) at 80,000 psi has a theoretical bolt thrust of 14,080 lbs.

Not much difference. Having fired this cartridge already and inspected the fired cartridges for pressure signs, it really points out the limitation of a brass cartridge. Bolt lift was easy and primers were not flattened.

You are figuring the internal case head diameter of the magnum case as about .446?

I think the theoretical bolt thrust of the standard bolt face is lower than 14,080 lbs

 

[ISS]

The Hemi was the second most crazy vehicle I ever owned.

In 1974 I bought a 67 XKE 4-speed primrose yellow coupe. Later that summer I fell of a hay wagon and broke my right arm. Four weeks later I get the cast off. Dr says to come back two weeks for a follow up. I drive the Jag in, and he tells me everything is good to go. We are walking out to the front and this nice middle aged lady asks if the Jag is mine. I say yes, and she asks if I would show her. Turns out the Dr is her brother. We walk out to the car and she has me open the rear hatch. I do and she points to a scratch on the corner of the hatch. It is her initials. She tells me her husband is a Dentist, and his parents bought them my XKE as a wedding present when he graduated from med school and they got married. She invites me to have dinner with her and her husband that evening. I do, and when we get to this fancy restaurant (one of those places where they do not put prices on the menu. The if you have to ask thing) there is this awesome White '65 Ford Cobra sitting out front. She tells me it is her husbands, he traded the Jag for it a couple years ago.
As we eat she is telling her husband she wants him to trade cars with me. He is resistant. She then reminds him how happy his love life is, and he would hate to see that fade. A week later he caved in, calls me and agrees to the trade. It is an early car with the 410 horse single four barrel 427. He upgraded to the four Weber carb set up. It is the only car I have ever owned that scared me hitting the throttle going in a straight line. The epitome of the point it straight and pull the trigger.

 

[wildcatter]

I keep seeing this assertion, but do you really think that the Creedmoor would be as popular as it is if it didn't live up to at least some of the hype? It has been around for almost 20 years now. Pretty sure it isn't "Marketing" that is keeping it popular.

I will assure you if they stop making cheap factory ammo it will die. That is why it stays a big seller. But it will never be because it does anything better than an already proven case! But you'll never get the fanboys drunk on its koolaid to understand that!

You dont have to call me old fashioned, just old! But when you come out with anything new and design it to use proprietary components, it will be short for this world! This is sad because they could have used a cartridge that already is available, and done the same thing, even better! I am a witness to that. So no it is to pease the me too's and cash in on the fad boy market. It does nothing better than what we already have, blast away, but back it with facts, I did.

But today, it does fill the notch for those that want instant gratification, with little effort, that will settle for less perfection than others, and buy everything they shoot, exactly why the crudmoore is still around.

I'll load my own, and know why its not only better, but understand the differance. Oh, and be able to find the cases to do that for eternity.

 

[AndyA]

You are figuring the internal case head diameter of the magnum case as about .446?

I think the theoretical bolt thrust of the standard bolt face is lower than 14,080 lbs

Here is what I figured:

A=(pi)*r(squared)
A=(3.1415926)*(.266*.266)
A=.2222 sqin
P=.2222*65000 psi
P= 14,443 lbs for a mag bolt face

using the same above for a standard bolt face (.473) is how I came to the answer I did. there may be a little deviation as I did round the pi value and the area value just to keep from typing out alot of numbers. I stand by them unless you can prove different.

 

[SteveOak]

Here is what I figured:

A=(pi)*r(squared)
A=(3.1415926)*(.266*.266)
A=.2222 sqin
P=.2222*65000 psi
P= 14,443 lbs for a mag bolt face

using the same above for a standard bolt face (.473) is how I came to the answer I did. there may be a little deviation as I did round the pi value and the area value just to keep from typing out alot of numbers. I stand by them unless you can prove different.

The mag boltface, or, more accurately the SAAMI spec for a mag case rim, is indeed .532.

Did you consider that the internal case diameter is smaller than .532" for the mag case? Therefore the bolt thrust needs to calculated using this smaller number for diameter/radius which will reduce the calculated bolt thrust. Similarly, the internal case diameter for the standard case is smaller than .473".

I am not arguing for or against your assertion, just looking for accurate calculations.

 

[Tommie]

One word-

EtronX

 

[bozo699]

Is this why I can't tell the difference between a Corolla, a Civic, a Ford SUV "MUSTANG and a BMW suv, but I can tell the difference between a 67 and a 68 camaro at a glance? Just asking for a friend....

^^^^^^^100%
Wayne

 

[AndyA]

The mag boltface, or, more accurately the SAAMI spec for a mag case rim, is indeed .532.

Did you consider that the internal case diameter is smaller than .532" for the mag case? Therefore the bolt thrust needs to calculated using this smaller number for diameter/radius which will reduce the calculated bolt thrust. Similarly, the internal case diameter for the standard case is smaller than .473".

I am not arguing for or against your assertion, just looking for accurate calculations.

View attachment 1673438

this also brings up an interesting point of does a 40 deg shoulder increase bolt thrust over a 20 deg shoulder?

 

[HandgunHTR]

I will assure you if they stop making cheap factory ammo it will die. That is why it stays a big seller. But it will never be because it does anything better than an already proven case! But you'll never get the fanboys drunk on its koolaid to understand that!

You dont have to call me old fashioned, just old! But when you come out with anything new and design it to use proprietary components, it will be short for this world! This is sad because they could have used a cartridge that already is available, and done the same thing, even better! I am a witness to that. So no it is to pease the me too's and cash in on the fad boy market. It does nothing better than what we already have, blast away, but back it with facts, I did.

But today, it does fill the notch for those that want instant gratification, with little effort, that will settle for less perfection than others, and buy everything they shoot, exactly why the crudmoore is still around.

I'll load my own, and know why its not only better, but understand the differance. Oh, and be able to find the cases to do that for eternity.

I am not sure why all the vitriol, but I feel compelled to respond as it seems this was directed at me. Also, I highlighted part of your comments in bold because I feel the need to point out that your post is very light on facts and very heavy on opinion and conjecture. However, I will strive to answer your post as factually as I can.

First, "cheap factory ammo" isn't what is keeping the Creedmoors alive. The cheapest offering from Hornady is the American Whitetail stuff that is still $1.50 a round, but the most popular offering from them is about $2.00 a round. That is pretty comparable to the .308 offerings. Also, in the world of supply and demand, a healthy demand drives a healthy supply. Fact #1. If the demand wasn't there, the prices would be higher as the various ammo companies wouldn't spend the money on components and tooling. Higher volume purchasing/manufacturing leads to lower prices. Fact #2.

As for the Creedmoor not doing anything better than an "already proven case", what it did was the following: Optimized the case design for a more efficient pressure curve. Fact #3. Got the SAAMI spec to use 1:8" twist barrels for use of heavier, better BC and SD bullets. Fact #4. What made that better than the .260 Remington, which already existed? Well, for one, the .260 specified a 1:9" twist barrel, so shooting anything over 140 grains was a crap shoot. So, if you wanted to shoot heavies you had to 1) rebarrel your gun and 2) use a non-standard mag box because otherwise you had to stuff those bullets into the case so that you could load them in the standard SA mag box which reduced the effectiveness pretty significantly. Also, Hornady also got gun manufacturers to support the round, which Remington never did. Heck, they barely supported it themselves. So, yes, it was better than the .260. Fact #5.
How about the 6.5X55? Well, unless you wanted to buy some expensive ammo loaded under CIP requirements, it was pretty nutered so people wouldn't blow up the old Swede Mausers that are still in circulation. Which meant that getting half-way decent proposal was a "reloading only" proposition. Just like in the example of the .260 that means doing something outside the norm. Also it was a long action cartridge, so the folks looking for a nice svelt hunting rifle weren't going to go LA. Fact #6.

I also understand that most of us that frequent this site are handloaders and have absolutely no problem putting together a custom firearm to get what we want. That is why I rebarreled my first .260 Rem to 260AI with a fast twist barrel about 8 years before the introduction of the 6.5 Creedmoor. That being said, we make up a pretty small portion of the shooting community at large. There is a giant population of gun owners who will never rebarrel a rifle or reload ammuntion. For them the Creedmoor does what the rest of us have been doing for a while through customization. If it doesn't need to be fiddled with or "improved", then it is "better than" in my opinion.

Finally, the final thing that the Creedmoor did, which we should all applaud is to make efficient cartridges and heavy-for-caliber bullets "mainstream". Again, those of use who like to experiement and are always on the hunt for "better" already knew this, but think back to 30 years ago, the number of bullet and barrel options that we had were pretty limited if you wanted to shoot heavies. Now, it is commonplace. The Creedmoor had a lot to do with that. Fact #7.

So, I return to my original point. Hate it all you want, but to discount what it is and what it did for the industry is a bit of cognitive dissidence. We should be embracing the things that bring new shooters into the fold and keep those that are already here. Our little community on this forum isn't going anywhere, but again, we are a pretty small sample of the whole population, and if we drive people out because we don't like what they use or how they use it, it won't be long before they start coming after our stuff too.

 

[Tommie]

this also brings up an interesting point of does a 40 deg shoulder increase bolt thrust over a 20 deg shoulder?

Nope

 

[HandgunHTR]

this also brings up an interesting point of does a 40 deg shoulder increase bolt thrust over a 20 deg shoulder?

The thing that you haven't taken into account in your calculations is how much thrust is being retarded by the case gripping the chamber walls. That is where the shoulder angle, or more accurately the amount of body taper, plays a role in bolt thrust. A cartridge with a 35 or 40 degree shoulder usually has less body taper, so it will grip the chamber walls better than one with a tapered body normally associated with the standard 17.5-20 degree shoulder.
So, an "Improved" cartridge will usually exhibit less bolt thrust than a standard one.

 

[shoot4fun]

WHY does every factory ammo discussion, no matter what particular factory cartridge, always bring out the Creedmoor and Hornady haters?
Thread starter;
"What happened to the Backcountry?"
Answers:
"@#$%!**& that F#@*N Hornady and the Creedmoor they rode in on!"

 

[precision1]

Well creedmore are here to stay.
When the first factory chambering are 308 and 6.5 creed factory rifles.....they are staying

I don't own a creedmore but would if a had to start over.

I do find it funny.but most of us that study this stuff find it all hilarious

 

[precision1]

Here is what I figured:

A=(pi)*r(squared)
A=(3.1415926)*(.266*.266)
A=.2222 sqin
P=.2222*65000 psi
P= 14,443 lbs for a mag bolt face

using the same above for a standard bolt face (.473) is how I came to the answer I did. there may be a little deviation as I did round the pi value and the area value just to keep from typing out alot of numbers. I stand by them unless you can prove different.

Well when it fades away maybe you can case form '06 brass or rebarrell to 280ai.lol

 

[TTE]

If you look at capabilities there are many cartridges that perform about the same. Like someone else said new cartridges are only to stimulate sales. Kind of like they change car styles every year. If they made the same style car 5 years in a row sales would go way down.

Yes and no. If they discontinue making brass cases and only make the kind of cases that suit the Back Country cartridges, things will change ..... A LOT !
True, others will continue to make brass cases ..... but for how long ?
I guess there will be brass cases as long as it's profitable to do so.