What could cause a rifle to do this ?

[Wolfdog91]

So this might be a little , underwhelming I guess , for many on here but I have a question I'm curious about something and can't seem to get much of an answer on the other forums about this.
So handi rifles as a whole seem to have this deal where a lot of them will , in a three round group shoot two super close and one of to the side,up down or what have you. Thought I was just crazy but after talking to guys who live eat and breath these little things apparently it's just kind of a common thing with these rifles.
Now I understand completely that these are pretty ..utilitarian, rifles and are not ment to have bench rest accuracy or something , but for this to be such a common occurrence (apparently) what could be causing it ? I don't think I could be shooters error that much if it's so prevent. And when I've asked others about this I just get a " it's just what they do" type of response.
So what could cause this ? I'm thinking maybe it's a harmonics deal caused by the fact their two part rifles ...but I've never heard of the like of TC contenders or encores doing similar.. Barrel construction or materials maybe ?

 

[CJ6]

I had one years back that did similar...I came to the conclusion that the hinge pin was the cause (loose).

 

[SSL]

I always figured it was the nature of the beast with inconsistent lock-up due to design issues. Never had one, but a friend had one the drove him crazy.

 

[ebb]

I don't know what causes this for H&Rs but I do recall that with Ruger No 1s that many smiths that fixed the issue did a lot of work to the forend hanger. Maybe some research on a No1 could give you some info on what to look for?????

 

[Ggmac]

I’ve got / had about every H&R rifle they put out . I’m sitting here looking at a 223 top of the line , fancy expensive ( considering) rifle . Advertised as varmit , laminated maple stock , nice trigger etc , sitting in my wood gun display case , NEVER SHOT . But back to the problem. It seems most , not all H&R single shots will give the groups you described. I also agree its due to the lock up and forearm pressure when sitting on the front rest .

 

[BoydAllen]

Where is the front bag on the forestock? The reason that I ask is that in the past I have found that two piece stocks can be sensitive to this. Assuming you are holding the rifle bag placement is not critical to balance. I would suggest that you start with the bag at the very back and work forward an inch at a time. Let us know of your results.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Where is the front bag on the forestock? The reason that I ask is that in the past I have found that two piece stocks can be sensitive to this. Assuming you are holding the rifle bag placement is not critical to balance. I would suggest that you start with the bag at the very back and work forward an inch at a time. Let us know of your results.

Yes, while I don't see what it's doing and a pic would likely help, Boyd's right about bag placement with them. You can't really free float one of them so the upward pressure being the same for every shot is critical. Closer to the receiver has much less leverage that out near the end of the forearm. You can see how this can matter pretty fast. Another thing is simply stress relief. They're inexpensive guns so I think it's not unfair to say they may well cut corners on that type of thing and have shots walk or go virtually anywhere as the bbl heats up within 2-3 shots

 

[Wolfdog91]

Where is the front bag on the forestock? The reason that I ask is that in the past I have found that two piece stocks can be sensitive to this. Assuming you are holding the rifle bag placement is not critical to balance. I would suggest that you start with the bag at the very back and work forward an inch at a time. Let us know of your results.

On the frame has give me the best results, though it's a bit... difficult


That being said have also been playing with mounting a bipod as far back and close to the frame as possible and things have been , interesting



Both was shot fairly similar.
I am curious about possibly doing what the BPC guys do when they find the "node point" int he barrel and rest ti there but idk.
These Handi a
Have to be my favorite little headaches lol

 

[Wolfdog91]

Yes, while I don't see what it's doing and a pic would likely help, Boyd's right about bag placement with them. You can't really free float one of them so the upward pressure being the same for every shot is critical. Closer to the receiver has much less leverage that out near the end of the forearm. You can see how this can matter pretty fast. Another thing is simply stress relief. They're inexpensive guns so I think it's not unfair to say they may well cut corners on that type of thing and have shots walk or go virtually anywhere as the bbl heats up within 2-3 shots

Ok now I've been told a lot of these barrels weren't stress relieved. Now I've asked about that before and was told it shouldn't matter too much because there alot of companies that apparently don't stress relieve and the shoot great . HOW EVER. One think the Handi nuts kept telling me was left the barrel completely coom between shots so hmm ,

 

[Webster]

I read an article a few years ago by a big name barrel maker. He said the barrel bar stock has to be annealed to drill the straightest possible hole the length of the barrel. Rifling has the follow the drilled hole. I think after drilling they are reamed then rifled?

How many barrels are straigthened by bending after rifling. If you saw how they determine if a barrel bore isn't straight and how they bend to correct it, it, it would scare the hell out of you.

 

[B Nettesheim]

Something worth looking at is the hammer dragging on its way to the pin
In some cases you can hear a noticeable sound between the hammer strikes when it hits home

 

[ncageneral]

David White , who I think now is deceased? did some wonderful work with H&R rifles, you might want to see if you can root around and find some of his writings on them. If i recall correctly, a rubber O ring around the hanger bolt on the fore end helped isolate the barrel from the fore end. I had a 444 that did the same thing, I zeroed for the first shot. Thats the only one that matters anyway.

 

[mike mccormick]

Much like the contenders, most accuracy issues are traced back to the forearm mounting inducing stress as the barrel warms up.

 

[Nader]

It's a Handi- rifle. You can't expect too much. The barrel is quick chambered right down the middle. The action is just a spring loaded hammer and trigger and it gives the primer a pretty good whack, so ignition is not an issue. The triggers are rough and creepy, the ejectors will toss a case into the next county. The barrels are pretty crude and pick up copper fouling wherever tooling marks and trenches in the steel occur, not good for consistency. Forend pressure should not become an issue until the barrel gets hot, after 6-7 continous shots. The little mild 22 hornet did pretty good, the hotter stuff, not so good. If you get two shots pretty close together it's random. 1-1/2" 5 shot groups at 100 is the norm. It's a barn gun and should keep the critters at bay in the back yard. I used one in 22 hornet for years as my "walking" close range chuck gun and just as the name implies it truly was a "handy rifle". I tried one in .223 but it wouldn't shoot as well as the Remington bolt guns we had.

 

[Rat Rifle]

It's a Handi- rifle. You can't expect too much. The barrel is quick chambered right down the middle. The action is just a spring loaded hammer and trigger and it gives the primer a pretty good whack, so ignition is not an issue. The triggers are rough and creepy, the ejectors will toss a case into the next county. The barrels are pretty crude and pick up copper fouling wherever tooling marks and trenches in the steel occur, not good for consistency. Forend pressure should not become an issue until the barrel gets hot, after 6-7 continous shots. The little mild 22 hornet did pretty good, the hotter stuff, not so good. If you get two shots pretty close together it's random. 1-1/2" 5 shot groups at 100 is the norm. It's a barn gun and should keep the critters at bay in the back yard. I used one in 22 hornet for years as my "walking" close range chuck gun and just as the name implies it truly was a "handy rifle". I tried one in .223 but it wouldn't shoot as well as the Remington bolt guns we had.

^ This is it ^ These rifles have a cult following. Reminds many of us of our youth. When the cost of a Model 94 was out of the question.

 

[BigBolt]

I had one in 45/70 and sometimes the groups were good other times the groups were no so good. I had to figure out why and something was causing movement even when the gun was solid in a rest. The only part of the gun I did not like was the plastic between the frame and the front grip. So, I decided to machine one out of brass to replace the plastic one. I made it so the play was really tight and opening the barrel was stiffer. Also, I polished the frame where it rubbed against the wear surface. Benched up the gun and all the groups were right on at 100 yards all with in 2 inches. The brass did look a little funny so I painted it flat black where you could see it. So, it appeared the plastic part between the front grip and frame was the issue. After tightening things up and putting a harder surface thing improved greatly and stayed that way. I ended up selling it many years ago and the guy loves it, and it is still grouping 2-inch groups.

 

[chop house]

inconsistent lock-up due to design issues

this is the conclusion i came to a few years back trying to solve the same problem you are having. mine are the cva hunters and amazingly reloading for those rifles (.223, .243, 7mm-08) is what ultimately led me to this site, after a swing through 24 hr campfire. so, for their inherent problems i am forever great-full. lol.

imho, it is imperative the cartridge headspace is on short side and the action is closed with the same technique every time. on mine if headspace is 'long' i can see light through the breech/barrel gap. add this to the fact you have to remount the rifle on the rest each shot.... and there is just a lot to go wrong.

i hunt with one for a variety of reason.... when crawling through low brush they can be cocked and fired one handed (say, at a charging hog). easy to load and unload (say, if getting out of sxs repeatedly). easy to ensure is unloaded in the dark and easy to demonstrate to hunt partners from afar rifle is cold.