Wet Moly coating

[madderg]

Can you use the "wet" method with HBN?

 

[Milo 2.0]

Can you use the "wet" method with HBN?

This is something I'd like to try also, maybe with alcohol?

 

[Terry]

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/molyfacts.html

I fould this interesting.

 

[Brians356]

With all due respect to Mr Tubb, the first few downside complaints of moly coating he lists, no longer apply with the wet method. It's NOT messy, it DOESN'T come off on your fingers, it's etched into the jacket material, that's the main difference.

Suppose I handed you a moly-coated bullet of some unknown origin, and you found you could not get any moly to rub off on your fingers. Would you say it meets the standard your wet method achieves?

Bump.

Care to respond?

I am genuinely curious: If no moly rubbed off a bullet (it passes a white glove test) how you would know if it had been coated using water or dry?

 

[bowfisher]

I'm pretty sure a guy can tell the difference in the end product between the two methods of application. If you have a method of applying it dry, sans wax coating that doesn't rub off and is etched into the jacket material, you might be on to something.

I rub mine an a Scotch-brite pad and test to see how much coating is left after a designated number of strokes, a guy could push a few bullets through the bore to test, but you're minus the heat/dynamic element, that's why it's a never ending debate, hard to replicate what happens to the bullet coating during firing. I could give a FFF less though, I know what works best for me, in high volume shooting outings, and that's what counts.

I'm not a chemist, but there is something about the H2O, combined with the MoS2, that allows the Mo to etch/bond better with the jacket material. A simple side by side comparison of dry vs wet application will produce different coated bullets. The sheen of the wet coated is very deep, I've personally never been able to duplicate it by dry coating, but not saying it's impossible.

Send me a PM with your number if you want to chat more about it. Busy time of the year for me, but I can always make 10 mins. Hope this helps.

 

[Brians356]

Thanks, but I'm satisfied from your thoughtful response that there is a difference in the coating. I will try the water next time, although I have several lifetimes worth of moly bullets already (both homebrewed and commercially coated) so I doubt I'll get around to it any time soon!

 

[Fivebulletsonehole]

I did not invent this. I am just passing on my findings.

 

[RDavies]

I like Bn coating much better

http://www.davidtubb.com/tubb-accuracy-reloading/bn-boron-coating

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq3iAoDz3jI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DsYhPLSUD8

I also use HBN in some barrels which really like it. These barrels (6mm and 6.5mm conventional rifling) went from needing to be cleaned every 20 shots, to going over 150 rounds between cleaning. They stayed nice and accurate all the way and ES/SD stayed very similar to uncoated.
BUT, I tried HBN in some of my newer (7mm) barrels, all canted land, 3 different brands. All of these showed much worse ES/SD with HBN coated bullets, while with wet moly coated bullets the ES/SD was slightly worse than bare bullets but much better than with HBN. I have heard others say that HBN gave worse ES/SD than moly as well, not sure if they were using canted land barrels as well???
I will keep using HBN in those barrels which are currently using it, but from now on, I will be more likely to try wet moly bullets in any barrels which I want to shoot long shot strings between cleaning.

 

[Duster_360]

Nothing new under the sun? I understand that this article describes using water in the tumbler for better results. I don't have the issue of PS, so perhaps someone can corroborate?

Precision Shooting Magazine
Vol 57, No 2, Page 54
June, 2009
"The Finally Perfect Moly"
M. L. McPherson

I finally found and read my copy. Article tracks thru the state of Moly and its problems at the time and then he documents his "discovery" and how it happened. He does recognize that this wet process produces a (snip from his article) "visually darker, in the sense of tone — same silver-black color, just a denser tone. On a lark, I compared the tenacity of this plating to the plating found on Norma Diamond Line bullets (Norma does the best job of moly-plating of any commercial manufacturer). My standard method for determining how well I have done the plating is to vigorously rub a bullet against my blue jeans — the longer I can rub before I can see gilding metal, the tougher I consider the plating to be.

The plating on the bullet I tested was tougher than the Norma plating and wax coating combined. Conversely, when I compared one of my previously plated bullets, I found the plating somewhat easier to rub through than that on the Norma bullet."

He also offers a theory why the wet moly process produces a different, denser plating - "As chemists know, water is the universal solvent. In this situation, we have water with a tiny amount of a mild microscopic abrasive (molybdenum-trioxide), and energy (from the tumbling). The molybdenum-trioxide is formed by the reaction of molybdenum-disulfide with copper, which is encouraged by water. The instant this abrasive creates a clean surface on the bullet, that surface is plated with a reasonably durable layer of moly that prevents further abrasion or corrosion. Eventually, the entire bullet surface is microscopically clean with moly in intimate contact. As bullets and wet moly continue to tumble, the plated surface is continuously hammered and thereby the moly is densified and driven into any surface porosity."

He also offers an observation I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere - "Examination of bullets plated in this manner after more than one year of storage in an unheated (relatively humid) garage shows zero evidence of the classic moly reaction (often seen on plated bullets after only a few months of such storage), where iridescent blues and greens begin to show in the plating (by the way, such bullets work just fine and using those seems to harm nothing."

I am familiar with the iridescent blue on some of the bullets I have coated using the dry process that he mentions - not all of mine show it, just some of them and as he offers, I see no difference shooting them versus the ones that do not have the iridescent appearance. One additional interesting thing I found reading this article is that he was using his RCBS tumbler that a lot of us used for the dry plating process and it obviously works for the wet process as well. As soon as I can go get some Dawn dish washing liquid, I'll be giving the wet process a try.

If you want a copy of the article, send me your email in a PM and I'll send the complete article. It is 6Mb in size - my scanner does a decent job, but offers no options for downsizing the scanned files.

 

[Brians356]

Nothing new under the sun? I understand that this article describes using water in the tumbler for better results. I don't have the issue of PS, so perhaps someone can corroborate?

Precision Shooting Magazine
Vol 57, No 2, Page 54
June, 2009
"The Finally Perfect Moly"
M. L. McPherson

I finally found and read my copy. Article tracks thru the state of Moly and its problems at the time and then he documents his "discovery" and how it happened. He does recognize that this wet process produces a (snip from his article) "visually darker, in the sense of tone — same silver-black color, just a denser tone. On a lark, I compared the tenacity of this plating to the plating found on Norma Diamond Line bullets (Norma does the best job of moly-plating of any commercial manufacturer). My standard method for determining how well I have done the plating is to vigorously rub a bullet against my blue jeans — the longer I can rub before I can see gilding metal, the tougher I consider the plating to be.

The plating on the bullet I tested was tougher than the Norma plating and wax coating combined. Conversely, when I compared one of my previously plated bullets, I found the plating somewhat easier to rub through than that on the Norma bullet."

He also offers a theory why the wet moly process produces a different, denser plating - "As chemists know, water is the universal solvent. In this situation, we have water with a tiny amount of a mild microscopic abrasive (molybdenum-trioxide), and energy (from the tumbling). The molybdenum-trioxide is formed by the reaction of molybdenum-disulfide with copper, which is encouraged by water. The instant this abrasive creates a clean surface on the bullet, that surface is plated with a reasonably durable layer of moly that prevents further abrasion or corrosion. Eventually, the entire bullet surface is microscopically clean with moly in intimate contact. As bullets and wet moly continue to tumble, the plated surface is continuously hammered and thereby the moly is densified and driven into any surface porosity."

He also offers an observation I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere - "Examination of bullets plated in this manner after more than one year of storage in an unheated (relatively humid) garage shows zero evidence of the classic moly reaction (often seen on plated bullets after only a few months of such storage), where iridescent blues and greens begin to show in the plating (by the way, such bullets work just fine and using those seems to harm nothing."

I am familiar with the iridescent blue on some of the bullets I have coated using the dry process that he mentions - not all of mine show it, just some of them and as he offers, I see no difference shooting them versus the ones that do not have the iridescent appearance. One additional interesting thing I found reading this article is that he was using his RCBS tumbler that a lot of us used for the dry plating process and it obviously works for the wet process as well. As soon as I can go get some Dawn dish washing liquid, I'll be giving the wet process a try.

If you want a copy of the article, send me your email in a PM and I'll send the complete article. It is 6Mb in size - my scanner does a decent job, but offers no options for downsizing the scanned files.

Thanks! I don't need the whole article, but please do comment on the Dawn, and how much is used.

 

[Duster_360]

He doesn't specify an amount - this is all he says about the amount of Dawn he is using is -

"Add enough concentrated Dawn to assure that, after significant agitation, each bullet is covered over the entire surface with a thin layer of detergent."

I've always used denat alcohol and let bullets air dry on paper towels, but will now be using Dawn instead. The comment he made about what Dawn adds to the cleaning action changed my mind - "The detergent emulsified hydrocarbons and the included chlorine bleach micro-etched the surface of each bullet, which removed corrosion (copper and zinc oxides) and otherwise primed the surface for superior moly plating." He had been having trouble plating Speer and Barnes bullets since they had grease on them when he read about using Dawn.

The cleaning procedure he outlined said that he let the bullets soak in Dawn for about 10 min with agitation every few minutes. Rinsed using hot tap water while agitating until no soap bubbles appear. He then proceeded to remove any water on or in the bullets. But this was what he was doing for the dry process. He never really details the wet process.

The others that have contributed here like Fivebulletsonehole and others have explained that. Put the bullets in a tumbler, cover with water and add about 2x what you would normally use for the dry process, tumble for 4 hrs. That's what I plan on trying as soon as I go get some Dawn.....

 

[Terry]

Tried wet moly coating this morning, I like it.
I washed the bullets and put them in the tumbler before going to Church.
Came home rinsed them off and towel dried them.
I think they look great.

Thanks!

Terry

 

[Conrad]

I haven't moly coated in about 6 years since switching to boron nitride, but I had to give this a try last night on a few bullets just out of curiosity. I have to say it's the easiest method and nicest finish I've ever seen.

Kind of a conundrum, because I don't think I can convince myself to go back to shooting moly because I like how inert hBN is, even more so now that I live in a more humid environment now. Either way, heck of a method. Definitely some chemistry going on there since water will react with MoS2, don't think wet method with hBN is going to work as well...

 

[thekriebles]

Nothing new under the sun? I understand that this article describes using water in the tumbler for better results. I don't have the issue of PS, so perhaps someone can corroborate?

Precision Shooting Magazine
Vol 57, No 2, Page 54
June, 2009
"The Finally Perfect Moly"
M. L. McPherson

...If you want a copy of the article, send me your email in a PM and I'll send the complete article. It is 6Mb in size - my scanner does a decent job, but offers no options for downsizing the scanned files.

Thanks for sharing, much appreciated!

 

[Waskawood]

I am chambering a new 17 caliber rifle and wanted to try some sort of bullet coating. I was going to try HBN because I have heard the horror stories about moly building up in the barrel and wanted to avoid it like the plague. Since reading this thread I have since ordered a jug of moly and coated about 8 batches of 17 caliber and 20 caliber bullets. We had an early winter so my range days are done until spring but I must say the coating looks great. A very deep luster that is very resistant to being rubbed off. I cannot wait to actually send some down range. My thanks to Bowfisher for all his help.

 

[Fivebulletsonehole]

I am chambering a new 17 caliber rifle and wanted to try some sort of bullet coating. I was going to try HBN because I have heard the horror stories about moly building up in the barrel and wanted to avoid it like the plague. Since reading this thread I have since ordered a jug of moly and coated about 8 batches of 17 caliber and 20 caliber bullets. We had an early winter so my range days are done until spring but I must say the coating looks great. A very deep luster that is very resistant to being rubbed off. I cannot wait to actually send some down range. My thanks to Bowfisher for all his help.

Also... Get you some Boretech Elminator. You won't get any moly build up.

In fact... I am starting to think all that moly build up panic was all a bunch of mooky stinks.

 

[Phil]

Who`s moly are you using and where are you getting it????

Is there one better than the others, or is it just repackaged from the same manufacturer???

Phil.

 

[Waskawood]

I used Lyman Super Moly.

 

[Terry]

Who`s moly are you using and where are you getting it????

Is there one better than the others, or is it just repackaged from the same manufacturer???

Phil.

Got mine from Midway.

 

[Duster_360]

Don't know if all the suppliers get moly from the same place , but I successfully used the NECO moly that I had from their dry moly kit last night.

I went and bought some Dawn and cleaned the big glass bowls I use to pour moly and bullets into. I put the steel shot for the dry process back into the NECO bottles they had come and and washed the moly drum well with Dawn. After everything was dry, I added 100 Berger 105 6mm BTs and water. I put a leveled 1/4 tbsp of moly in the drum and set it up to run 4 hrs. I was disappointed 4 hrs later - I had bullets that were still pink. Thinking I didn't have enough moly, I added another leveled 1/4 tbsp of moly and set it to run another 4 hrs.

By the time bullets were finished again, I'd convinced myself it was not going to work because I was using way too much water. After all, McPherson was running in a near moly 'mud' when he discovered the wet process. I was right - bullets were still pink, no different that the 1st time. I reduced the water until I literally had just enough to cover most of the bullets - I could see tips sticking out of the water - set to run for another 4 hours.

This time - WOW, in all the 1000's on dry moly bullets I've made, Never seen any of them look this good - and this is with no wax, just a rub with a paper towel.