Western Colorado shoots their first E-Target 600 yard Benchrest match

[newbieshooter]

Sacramento (SVSC) has been shooting monthly NBRSA 600/1000 ETarget matches for most of 2023. This year SVSC has 9 Freedom matches & 11 NBRSA matches scheduled - all shot on ETargets. All I've heard from SVSC are positive comments from shooters that echo what @Mulligan posted.

We had a chance to shoot a NBRSA 600 ETarget match last month. Over 90% of the shooters preferred shooting on ETargets. We had plans on a hybrid match for 2024 where you use ETargets for sighters and paper targets for record. But given the overwhelming response to ETargets - we will probably stick to shooting all ETarget matches.

 

[BlueWater]

As many of you know, FREEDOM BENCHREST has an E-TARGET benchrest program.

The Western Colorado Rifle and Silhouette Club ... with a mostly sunny day with high temps in the low 40's.

Yesterday in the 40's. Lucky dogs.

Most loved the instant feedback of the shotmarker targets systems. I tried to "chase the spotter" and ended up with a big ugly group.

Edit to add photo
View attachment 1512539

Well, that is a bunch of likely suspects, right there. Any day shooting with buddies is a good day.


A friend of a friend often takes his electronic target to the range when we go shooting. It's always fun to see how the unit does. (A SilverMountain "Solo", IIRC.) Definitely nice to get the immediate feedback, instead of trundling out to the target line before knowing.

 

[Evan]

E-Targets have been a blessing to many older service rifle shooters who cannot pull pit duty any longer......error or not. The error, however small, is present and fair across all the targets in the "system".

Many ranges currently hold F-Class matches now with e-targets that would otherwise not be able to host those matches because they do not have pits or the resources to construct pits. That is one of the many reasons it was the fastest growing of all the shooting sports for several years...... besides it being darn fun.

Many of us have shot on shotmarkers for several years now and fully understand the weakness of the system. Their strength is what keeps us using them. They are very accurate, the error is closer to the same across systems than most people think. Although I do not have study to point to, the shotmarkers do tend (from my experience) to measure center to center of groups smaller than my calipers do. Again, if the error in smaller measurement of groups is even across the system (and it is), why would I give it another thought. Every target is measured the exact same way at our match........ that is fair.

I am not sure why some folks feel inclined to negatively vent on this thread because we did something different, but they do. And to that end, I wish you all well. We will stay the course here at Western Colorado and do what is best for our program. We will make some mistakes and have some successes. All of which we are willing to share here on an open forum because we want to grow the program.

Besides CRC on the front range (5 hours away across the divide) Sac is the closest range to us, then Deep Creek in MT, Then the lads in Tuscan. Vapor Trail is over 14 hours away and SD and SL are both closer to 15 hours away. So, we shoot every month because there are no other clubs around to "share" the load with. We are hoping to pick up a range in WY and Terry at CRC is starting a 600 yard program this spring. The point is, that we are developing a program here in the Central Rockies that is growing and we think e-targets will help. Ask us in a year or two how it's working out, because as of now it is all positive and we hope that continues, but we do not know.

At this time we intend to shoot our "Winter League" completely on e-targets this season. How will we know if we don't give it an honest effort? We plan to shoot the regular season (May through Oct) on the same frames with e-target running for sighters and pull paper for regular measurement.

In closing I will add, several shooters plainly asked at the end of the day, "Clay, why would we ever go back to pulling paper"? "This system is so much better". They really were well pleased.

I have sent my comments in to Adam this morning for system additions to the Freedom X3 target he developed for us.

I will keep folks posted as things change.


Regards
Clay

Jerry, Terry, and I shot on shotmarkers for the last match of the season at CRC last year to get a feel for how to run a match with them. I believe we are all sold on it as a viable way to run a match that might allow us to shoot more and work less at the matches. Our participating members were all amiable to moving onto e-targets next year too so there is a consensus at our club. Most of our guys seem to show up to shoot and have some fun together; the match is almost just the byproduct of us getting together (I apologize to our club members if I’ve projected my feelings onto this and you feel differently! Let me know.) The only vocal opposition Ive seen to etargets has been on the forum from shooters who didn’t come to Colorado to shoot on paper and aren’t likely to come for etargets either.

@Mulligan , Clay, I found using the “Export CSV” and collecting scores and group sizes from that file to be pretty easy with the 1K target so that members don’t need to screenshot or mess around with it. Does Adam’s 3-target layout score the targets correctly or is it just a background that you need to manually score? (I need to go back and inspect your screenshots, I can probably answer my own question).

Even with Jerry departing, I’d like to keep our clubs in close contact with each other.

 

[Mulligan]

Jerry, Terry, and I shot on shotmarkers for the last match of the season at CRC last year to get a feel for how to run a match with them. I believe we are all sold on it as a viable way to run a match that might allow us to shoot more and work less at the matches. Our participating members were all amiable to moving onto e-targets next year too so there is a consensus at our club. Most of our guys seem to show up to shoot and have some fun together; the match is almost just the byproduct of us getting together (I apologize to our club members if I’ve projected my feelings onto this and you feel differently! Let me know.) The only vocal opposition Ive seen to etargets has been on the forum from shooters who didn’t come to Colorado to shoot on paper and aren’t likely to come for etargets either.

@Mulligan , Clay, I found using the “Export CSV” and collecting scores and group sizes from that file to be pretty easy with the 1K target so that members don’t need to screenshot or mess around with it. Does Adam’s 3-target layout score the targets correctly or is it just a background that you need to manually score? (I need to go back and inspect your screenshots, I can probably answer my own question).

Even with Jerry departing, I’d like to keep our clubs in close contact with each other.

With the three "bulls" on one frame, the system looks at and records all three. We tap on the screen to get group size and I have asked Adam to include score in the dialog box with the group.
It is fast and easy and the shooters like it.

CW

 

[quest450]

Clay, how do you guys address a questionable situations like where the bullet hole is just barely touching (or not) the 10 ring line, the shooter has the option to protest and have the refs look at the target and make the right call, do you just relay on the electronics, it happens all the time during a sanctioned match.

 

[Mulligan]

Clay, how do you guys address a questionable situations like where the bullet hole is just barely touching (or not) the 10 ring line, the shooter has the option to protest and have the refs look at the target and make the right call, do you just relay on the electronics, it happens all the time during a sanctioned match.

Yep, 100% electronics.

There is not "parallax" error with a computer, it either touches or it doesn't.
Clay

We keep a copy of each target, the shooter could question it if they so chose. However, you can see on the screen if it touches or not............. let's face it, with a computer (laptop, tablet, iPhone) you can zoom way in and see the details.

CW

 

[quest450]

Ty,

I'm somewhat skeptical about the E-target for benchrest but probably because I have zero experience with it.

Good luck and I hope it works out it definitely makes the match run quicker and that's a big plus

 

[Mulligan]

Ty,

I'm somewhat skeptical about the E-target for benchrest but probably because I have zero experience with it.

Good luck and I hope it works out it definitely makes the match run quicker and that's a big plus

I shoot both short range and long range benchrest.
I have scored a metric ton of targets for long range.
I have never and I mean never measured my targets when I get home and came up with what was measured at the range. I have also photographed LOTS of targets and used computer programs to measure the same targets, never the same as range measured. There is error in this sport, period.

I have NEVER protested a target, and I hope I never do. Sure I have seen errors, honest errors and I let it be. Most shooters squeal about the errors made against them but never say a word about the errors in their favor.

Shoot the game and have fun. We will always have "serious" matches, but affordable local matches are of value too.

Take care
CW

 

[DHuffman]

@Mulligan

If my comment was taken as venting it was not meant that way. Just relaying my one experience with them going on 5 years ago.

Seems it's impossible to get everyone to agree on everything, I'm not saying E targets are bad I'm saying I like shooting paper for multiple reasons which I won't go into in this thread to keep it what you intended.

 

[DirtySteve]

In the winter no pit duty would be nice as it speeds up the match. I like doing pit duty and having paper but e targets really save on time. This being said I do have a Shot Marker on order..

 

[quest450]

WHOA!

Clay I hope I didn't hit a nerve by just asking a few questions that I was hoping you could shade some light on since you have experience with the new E-target format...that's all.

 

[Thumper]

I was one of the shooters at this match, I am also one of the volunteers who measures most of the groups and my wife enters all of the groups and scores into the spreadsheet.
Everything was easier and faster with the electronic system and my wife said her job was easier not having to handle and organize all of the targets.
There were also fewer mathematical scoring errors and we never once had to scrutinize a group to determine if all 5 shots were there.
It is a little different game but l had just as much or more fun with this match format. I am in favor of converting to this electronic format for future matches.
Groups are getting smaller at 600 yards as technology and experience improves, an electronic system makes it easy to verify there are 5 shots in the group. Many ranges that still want to pull paper could use electronic target frames as a moving backer to verify round count.
Tim Barber

 

[Warren Dean]

I have been following this thread with some serious interest. I am an F Class shooter and a proponent of e-targets. Some f class shooters are warming up to them but it seems that there is much moaning and fussing about the short comings of them and blah, blah, blah. I look at it as the future of competitive shooting sports. And the people that say they will just not shoot where e targets are used are just cutting off their nose to spite their face. Thisyear will be all e targets at the F Class Nationals at winnequah Gun Club in Lodi, wisconsin. They have been using them since at least 2018 and they apparently have worked out the bugs.

I appreciate Clay's explanations and I figure if benchrest is using them, them f class can just get used to them or go play PRS or something.

 

[Mulligan]

WHOA!

Clay I hope I didn't hit a nerve by just asking a few questions that I was hoping you could shade some light on since you have experience with the new E-target format...that's all.

Mark, no worries.
You didn’t hit a nerve.
I have had nonstop calls today regarding the use of etargets in benchrest. Several of the calls were along the lines of….. how dare I do something like this. Don’t get me wrong, most were super supportive and wanting more info on the system Adam designed.

My point of the post was, we are moving forward error or not. The error is small enough that it may not even matter because it is the same error on every target system.

I was wrong to reply directly to you Mark, I apologize for that.

Have a good evening
CW

 

[memilanuk]

I'll skip the whole pro/con e-target debate other than this: at our range, the pits are... not in great shape. Never had any accidents or close calls (that I know of, as MD for a while now)... but as a MD, I sleep a whole lot better *not* having people down range pulling targets.

I've pulled my fair share (and then some) of targets, and I've seen people catch a face full of spindle when someone hits the spotter. Yeah, there's lots of things you can do to be safe(er) - wear eye protection, wear ear protection (something nobody told me the first time I ever went to the pits - that was a long couple relays), wear a hat with a brim, watch the berm for impacts instead of the target, stand back against the pit wall between shots, etc. etc. None of that is as safe as *not being there* in the first place.

@Mulligan I do have an operational question for you: What's the process you use for precisely locating the target faces when replacing them?

 

[Mulligan]

I'll skip the whole pro/con e-target debate other than this: at our range, the pits are... not in great shape. Never had any accidents or close calls (that I know of, as MD for a while now)... but as a MD, I sleep a whole lot better *not* having people down range pulling targets.

I've pulled my fair share (and then some) of targets, and I've seen people catch a face full of spindle when someone hits the spotter. Yeah, there's lots of things you can do to be safe(er) - wear eye protection, wear ear protection (something nobody told me the first time I ever went to the pits - that was a long couple relays), wear a hat with a brim, watch the berm for impacts instead of the target, stand back against the pit wall between shots, etc. etc. None of that is as safe as *not being there* in the first place.

@Mulligan I do have an operational question for you: What's the process you use for precisely locating the target faces when replacing them?

Good question
The top edge of the coroplast backer is the top edge of the top two record targets. The paper is aligned with that edge and there is a scribed line on the coroplast that is the divider between the top two targets.
The sighter target on the bottom is aligned with the bottom edge of the coroplast face splitting the difference between the two top targets horizontally

Having said that, the new Freedom 600 yard targets have hash marks on the lower edge to make alignment easier on the sighter target.

CW

 

[Evan]

Several of the calls were along the lines of….. how dare I do something like this. Don’t get me wrong, most were super supportive and wanting more info on the system Adam designed.

Eek! I hope they were at least local shooters who come to matches and who had skin in the game because otherwise that’s a concerning type of rude for match directors everywhere.

 

[memilanuk]

Any issues with the paper being not... square?

As an MD at a small local club I've built more than a few targets over the years, and have found on more than one occasion that the pieces didn't always line up (we have four-piece full-face targets for the 600yd HP/FC targets) due to the paper having stretched - presumably when wet during the manufacturing process. And again when we paste the pieces - and the center - on and they dry in the sun. Probably less of an issue for you - I assume you're stapling them in place?

Even now, when we just staple the repair centers in place relative to witness marks on the face, I've seen them not line up perfectly. I was just curious if you'd ran into that yet, and maybe came up with a fix.

 

[memilanuk]

Eek! I hope they were at least local shooters who come to matches and who had skin in the game because otherwise that’s a concerning type of rude for match directors everywhere.

One of the older gents that used to shoot at our range had an interesting concept - one that I'm more and more in favor of as I get older and less tolerant of dealing with certain attitudes: that before you could achieve HM rank, regardless of scores, you had to successfully set up and run at least three matches by yourself, in order to have some clue as to all the little things that can and do go sideways, and that MDs have to deal with - including that 1% of pissy/entitled competitors. More of a HP thing with the shooter classifications, but I'm sure there are plenty of BR match directors that know *exactly* what I'm talking about.

 

[Mulligan]

Any issues with the paper being not... square?

As an MD at a small local club I've built more than a few targets over the years, and have found on more than one occasion that the pieces didn't always line up (we have four-piece full-face targets for the 600yd HP/FC targets) due to the paper having stretched - presumably when wet during the manufacturing process. And again when we paste the pieces - and the center - on and they dry in the sun. Probably less of an issue for you - I assume you're stapling them in place?

Even now, when we just staple the repair centers in place relative to witness marks on the face, I've seen them not line up perfectly. I was just curious if you'd ran into that yet, and maybe came up with a fix.

Nope, not on these.
It was out first go at this e-target Benchrest thing. In a couple of months we will likely have a better answer.

CW