warning to all....Vit 550 major problems

[jager408]

guys

a heads up to all who use Vit 550

in short I have a custom 6.5x47, last year I loaded from new 250 round of 41g off 550 and 123Lap (molyed)scenar..(this is the internationally agreed "best" load for this cal I have shot it in other rifles and all is fine, also Quickload shows it in a safe zone.

I used this load-rifle in the world sniper championships in Hungary where I came 2nd..I didn't use all the ammo and brought it back and spent the rest of the year shooting of the remainder of it so I had a complete set of once fired brass for the comp this year.

I completely re-loaded all the brass with the remainder of the same tubb of 550 I had opened the year before , same load, (I checked and re-calibrated my digital scales) with the same lot of Lap bullets. unfortuanlty I didn't test shot them before I left for the comp but as this tried and tested load I didn't think it nessercary.

on firing the new re-load the bolt was very stiff on extraction and the brass was showing massive repeat MASSIVE pressure signs, both flatting and in most cases blowing out the primers..I fired 4 rounds thinking there was a one off problem but on the 5th firing the case expanded the surgeon bolt head and it was ultmalty destroyed because of the excess pressure and extracting it from the action.

I should state the powder has been stored in my house (in an ambiant temp) in its container with the lid sealed and has not be tampered with, I am wondering if something has happened to the powder over the last year..?

i should also state im a reloader of some 20 years experince and have never seen or heard of anything like this in fairness to Vit i have emailed them twice asking for and possible explanation from there side...but have recived nothing back which i take to be evidense that there is a possible problem with the chemical balance of there product......just wondered if anyone else had come across the same problem????

cheers
all

 

[spclark]

Can you post the lot/batch # for your N550, how much you bought of it (1 or 8 lb bottles?) and when please?

There are many factors that could contribute to the excessive pressure you report. What those might be in your case, and how much each contributes to your issue may take some time to sort out.

Glad you appear to have survived unscathed what sounds like an undoubtedly life-threatening set of circumstances.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Glad to hear you are safe!

Is there any chance that you might have loaded the new rounds to a different OAL that jammed the bullets into the lands raising pressures or possibly a carbon ring developed? Just throwing out suggestions.

 

[bozo699]

jager408 ,
I normally try to greet new comers by saying welcome to the forum, I really mean welcome to the forum, glad to hear you survived to whole ordeal. I sure hope you hear something back positive from VV. That is a scary story! I think you should have stopped after the first one or two but things can get confusing when competing, take care and hope you figure it all out.
Wayne.

 

[FroggyOne2]

Sounds like a sizing problem to me.. I may be wrong, but it is worth looking at.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I just thought of something else. What about case stretching? If case stretches too much it will pinch the bullet and increase pressures.

 

[LongRanger]

woweee! i reported the same problem over on the Long Range forum on July 17th, to wit:

"Posted 17 July 2011 - 08:26 AM

Be careful with initial charge weights if you try VV 550. I wanted to try some in my 284 and looked at its comparative burn rate on the chart shown on the VV web site which showed it to be similar to H4350, which I was very familiar with. I threw some initial charges for my 284 a little lighter than 4350, which had been giving speeds in 2820 area with SMK 180's.

First and only shot was more like an explosion than ignition. After smoke in my face cleared, I looked at chronograph....speed was 3060!...240 fps faster than I had expected!!! Could open bolt only with considerable force. Case and bolt came out as an assembly. Case rim was fused into tiny clearance between extractor and bolt (Barnard action).

It was the dumbest thing I had ever done in 60 years of reloading. Felt very fortunate that neither I nor the rifle suffered any dire consequences. That Barnard certainly did its part!

Further testing a coupla days later showed that the load of vv 550 was SIX GRAINS too much. Only 47 grains of the vv 550 were needed to get same 2820fps I got with 53 grains of H4350.

Had never used VV 550 before and should have done more research after I poured some out and noted how much smaller the granules were than 4350.


Frank"

Mine was from a 2# bottle I bought 2 years ago. It has numbers all over it and closest thing I can come up with for a lot number is 930/98...00790...270600.

Frank B.

 

[jager408]

dear all

thanks for the input and for your concerns...and yes it was a very close thing..my guns smiths recon it was very nearly a catastropic faliure which is why im posting...as i would want it to happen to anyone else...so in answer to your questions..

the tub was a 1kg tubb number 19307 00651 dated 20-3-07

the brass was once fired Lap brass on a realtly light load of 2950 so no brass stretch

the rifle was nearlly new only 300 rounds or so fired so no damage or carbon in the barrel

the dies are reddaing match and all the re-loading was done by myself and unchaged for ever, i did pull 1 - 10 of the rounds to check them upon my return and all were good and as to the original loads..

the only thing i can nail this down to is that there has been some chemicail change in the powder since it was orignally opened as the first time i used it it was fine...

this is further held up by trying the same load with a new tub of powder and all was good again...i am very wored by the silence from Vit on the subject!!!

thanks

 

[dreever]

If it was me, I'd count myself really lucky and dispose of the remainder of the 550 powder or ask VV if they want it back for testing. Perhaps the nitrocellulose that VV is using is becoming unstable for some reason??????????

I have some N540 on the shelf that I've used off and on for the last ten years with no problems whatsoever. Same load I've always used, but after reading this it makes me wonder.

Danny

 

[jager408]

danny

that was my first instint to..get rid..but i have kept it for indipendant valuation if required..i have asked Vit if they want it back but got nothing but waffle back from them...no doubt thought there legal dept...

my real concern is if this had of happended to someone with a lesser action (mine was a surgoen) or the nito celulose does become unstable for some reason...and it had of killed someone then no one would ever really know what had gone on....

cheers

 

[spclark]

I have a few unopened one pound bottles of N540 and N550 on hand. Purchased for some initial testing, I try to buy "enough" at one time to make testing and subsequent use practical as this stuff is particularly hard to find here in the US from time to time.

I read your initial post yesterday with interest. I'd noted some discoloration of the purple plastic tops on these bottles, more prominent on the N550 than the N540 and not present on similar caps of some 8# N140 I've had for years. The 1# product have been on my shelf in storage since arrival @ temps no higher than 80°F / 27° C, 60% humidity max.

I've known propellants of this kind demand careful evaluation before use owing to their double-base nature but have used both products with good results & no surprises. If other users are seeing unusual performance and also noting the cap discoloration I'm looking at, we may have more info / wider sample range to present to VV.

In the image attached the N540 caps have magic marker numbers on them, at the bottom of the frame.

 

[WyleWD]

Really glad to read that you're Ok other than rattled a little bit (to say the least). I'm going to assume that you bought this off of a reputable dealer and that they stored it properly as you have. Over there in UK, does in come in 1kg (2.2 lb) plastic bottles or 1/2kg (1.1lb) bottles? They quit selling it in 2lb bottles over here a few years back (3 or 4years ago???) and can't honestly say that I've ever seen 550 over here in 5 or 8lb containers.

Please do keep us informed. I use that quite a bit and have always found it to be quite stable as others have posted. Thanks again for the heads up. WD

 

[abraverman]

Hello Jager408,

I, too, am glad you are okay. I am the sales and business manager for Lapua and VihtaVuori in the USA. Can you let me know in a PM to whom you sent your e-mails at VV for their response? I'll see if I cannot direct you to the proper person to assist you with your issue.

Make it a great day!!

Adam Braverman

 

[SnakeEye]

Was curious if possibly your cases had grown enough to where the neck was pinched by the chamber or your die caused it to stretch? I have used that powder for 3 yrs in my 6x47 L. Was planning on using it in a 6.5x47L. Glad you are OK!

 

[dennisinaz]

I found in some older lots of N560 that I bought when it first became available that it gave HIGHER velocities when it was "fresher" and that it was best to let is sit for a while and stabilize before I loaded anything else with it.

My beef is the cost of the stuff. Whereas it used to be similar priced to regular powders here, now it is 50% more. Not all of this is the dollar value. I'll never use the stuff again as there are too many good powders from American manufacturers (or at least repackagers to consider it)

I can't speak for V V but generally when something like this happens, the powder has gone bad and one can usually tell by looking at it and smelling it. I generally have 100 # or so of powder on hand at any one time and I have only ever lost one pound that has gone bad; a 1 lb can of IMR 7828. It is great fertilizer.

I bought several cases of Solo powder. I used the data that was suggested and then went down from there, the first round I fired fused a 30-06 case to the bolt head and ruined the extractor. I had to install an M16 extractor after I got it apart. Haven't used any since!

 

[sailhertoo]

Close call - glad your OK.

I have no experience with 550 but I've got some 10 year old 540 that shoots better than the new stuff.

 

[jager408]

adam

thanks for the reply..the person dealing with my emails was kthomas@nammoinc.com (kevin thomas)
i would be greatfull if you could assist in getting to the bottom of this issue...for all concerned.

regards
rob

 

[jager408]

Adam, just wondered if you had made any headway with this as I'm sure others on here would be interested.....if you need the original email let me know and send me an email address to forward it to you...

thanks for the reply..the person dealing with my emails was Thomas@nammoinc.com (Kevin thomas)
i would be greatfull if you could assist in getting to the bottom of this issue...for all concerned.

regards
rob

 

[bozo699]

Rob,
There was a lot of shoots the last couple of weekends, I don't know Andy but Kevin Thomas has been top notch helping us with problems, give him some time to respond, I am sure he will sort it all out for you if possible.
Wayne.

 

[tenring]

I had a similar problem with a 1 lb. can of IMR 3031 years ago. Wrote to DuPont, they asked me to send it to them for a bomb test - that is the only way to analyze it. They place a measured amount in a water tight sealed container and explode it under water. I suppose instruments are somehow attached to facilitate the test. Never did send it in.