So, I'm on a list to get a case of midas+. I was told it shouldn't be too much longer. This lot of midas+ shoots very well in both of my Vudoos but I have less than 2 bricks left so I save it for our club matches. My question is, should I ask for a 255 lot if it's available?
Voodoo Three60 ammo
- Thread starter Skeptic123
- Start date
Rimfire is indeed largely a mystery.Well… I wouldn't claim to have "solved" anything with regard to rimire…. it still largely a mystery.
But based on my own experience, those of of most all the guys I compete against at my local club and and countless Internet mavens of the mystery of rimfire.... muzzle velocity / bbl harmonics is going to be a major factor in terms of what shoots well. Muzzle velocity should not be discounted / ignored simply because every ammo has SD/ES. If we are looking for any ammo and especially rimfire ammo with 0 SD/ES, let's all sell our guns, quit shooting, and stay home.
By Vudoo's own acknowledgment, their chamber is designed for Lapua. And Lapua offers ammos with differing muzzle velocity. Those will have SD/ES as every ammo does. But MV still seems to be the best indicator of what's going to shoot well out out of different guns.
It's wrong-headed and deceptive, however, to suggest that anyone is looking for "rimfire ammo with 0 SD/ES." No one who has even a passing familiarity with .22LR would expect to find it, and fewer still would suggest searching for it.
It's also misleading to imply that Lapua or other ammo makers "offers ammos with differing muzzle velocity" as a service to shooters. The fact is that ammo makers can't produce on demand match ammo in quantity at a particular average MV. When they produce ammo they get a variety of lots that will produce different velocities as a matter of course.
What objectionable is the idea that a rifle must shoot only a certain average MV best and that the same rifle can't shoot lots of ammo that have different average MV's with equal accuracy. For example, the two best lots of Lapua that I enjoyed shooting over the last several months were 25xxx and 29xxx. Even though they have different average MVs by lot number, they nevertheless both produced excellent accuracy in two rifles, with any difference in accuracy statistically irrelevant.
Accuracy performance is not necessarily lot average MV dependent. More important is that, whatever the average MV, the ammo have a low ES and low SD -- especially as target distance increases -- although that itself doesn't guarantee how a lot will perform. It's impossible to know how a lot will shoot until it's tested.
The 255 is not the lot. U can ask for 25 speed if available but that doesn’t mean it will shoot the same as the lot you already have.
I understand the numbers. I was just referring to the speed. I also understand that there are other variables besides MV. I was just asking where MV was on the list in case I have a choice. I tried to get more of that lot number but by the time I was able to shoot some in good conditions, it was gone.
Targets dont madder .what madders is how a rifle shoots against other good rifles in same conditions ,maybe a match? cherry picking best groups = nothingWell… I wouldn't claim to have "solved" anything with regard to rimire…. it still largely a mystery.
But based on my own experience, those of of most all the guys I compete against at my local club and and countless Internet mavens of the mystery of rimfire.... muzzle velocity / bbl harmonics is going to be a major factor in terms of what shoots well. Muzzle velocity should not be discounted / ignored simply because every ammo has SD/ES. If we are looking for any ammo and especially rimfire ammo with 0 SD/ES, let's all sell our guns, quit shooting, and stay home.
By Vudoo's own acknowledgment, their chamber is designed for Lapua. And Lapua offers ammos with differing muzzle velocity. Those will have SD/ES as every ammo does. But MV still seems to be the best indicator of what's going to shoot well out out of different guns.
See disclaimer, below.
I'd like for VooDoo to explain to us how a chamber can be built around a certain ammo? What makes this center x chamber special?
garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
I have no idea what your point is. It doesnt matter if a rifle can consistently hit the taggets bullseye?
Who advocated cherry picking best groups ?
What are you talking about? Did you mistakenly quote my post?
When the OP told us his action was a 360, I figured he was talking about the new Three-60 repeater, but he later stated that it was the single shot action, or V-22S. AFAIK, all VGW repeaters before the Three-60 were chambered with the RAVAGE reamer. I've never asked Mike, Paul, or anyone else at VGW what reamer they use on Gen 3 factory bbl'd actions, either the Three-60 repeater, nor V-22S single shot. Though I'd be surprised if they use a Win 52D Match reamer on the V-22S, it would probably be a decent choice for the Three-60 repeater. I've always used an EPS reamer in my V-22 repeaters, but when I put a Shilen R5 bbl on my V-22S, I went with the Nevius reamer.
When I sent my original V-22 repeater out to Mesa to be tested, several of the Center-X lots Daniel tested out-shot all of the Mida+ that he shot through my rifle. Maybe he didn't have very many lots of Midas+ in stock at that time (a couple of years ago); whatever, I was more than happy to buy a couple of cases of Center-X (at $1000/case) that shot better than any of the Midas+($1400/case).
When I sent my original V-22 repeater out to Mesa to be tested, several of the Center-X lots Daniel tested out-shot all of the Mida+ that he shot through my rifle. Maybe he didn't have very many lots of Midas+ in stock at that time (a couple of years ago); whatever, I was more than happy to buy a couple of cases of Center-X (at $1000/case) that shot better than any of the Midas+($1400/case).
Rimfire ammunition performance can be influenced by leade angle and seating depth among other factors. The slight variations in chamber dimensions can yield better performance, such as using the Nevius chamber designed for Lapua ammunition. (Kevin is sponsored by Lapua and is an accomplished engineer and gunsmith.)
Yes...We would all like to hear MB explain his lapua chamber
Above, in your second last post, you now claim that you never said or implied that "a rifle would only shoot one muzzle velocity well".
Below is what you said in earlier in this thread in your second post (#9).
You claimed "its a 'speed' issue....gotta pick the speed your gun likes".
Which is it? Is it a "speed" issue or not?
It appears as though you're trying to have it both ways. Either that or you're walking back the dubious assertion that it's a "speed" thing.
garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
@grauhanen ... "Speed" could be at multiple velocities. I never said there is only one velocity a rifle will ever shoot good at. Every gun I've ever handloaded for has multiple accuracy nodes... as one world record bench rest shooter said every 50' per second or so. I simply noted that my particular gun shot the 326 m /s Lapua + very well. I never said no other velocity Midas + would shoot well. You misunderstood what I said and now you're trying to create an argument. Whatever I say you're going to argue with it. You need to back it down and read more carefully. Regardless, I'm not interested in playing your game. Goodbye. Don't make me put you on ignore, first time Id ever have done it.
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I just heard back from Voodoo and here is the quote from the email. "The repeaters, both Gen 2 and Three 60 use our Ravage chamber. The single shot uses a 52D chamber. The single shot is also a three lug, 60 bolt that does not accept a magazine."
Regardless of what chamber it is, I CANT WAIT!
Let us know how it shoots when ya get er tuned up.
Ive got a strong hankerin for a Vudoo. As soon as I can find some of that ammo with speed at multiple velocities I’m ordering a gun
All:
I thought I would chime in, I am no expert - just a lifelong tinkerer and experimenter. I compete in both RF and LR Highpower, and years ago it made sense to me that we could alter engraving depth in RF just like I did with seating depth (and other variables) in HP to optimize barrel / ammunition performance.
For what its worth, I am still using the same chamber profile with Lapua ammunition - a 1.5 degree leade angle, shallow taper chamber based on the old Meyers chamber - set up to engrave .030". I have used it to win four National Titles, and I am really happy with it. It has consistently outperformed all of the other profiles I have used in many different barrel configurations (and there have been a bunch over 25 years of shooting and smithing RF rifles).
Seating depth IMHO serves several functions in RF - the engraving must be sufficient to provide an optimal starting point and gas seal, and must provide sufficient clearance at the case mouth for the accumulation of debris over an adequate number of rounds to maintain accuracy (in my case, I use approx. 200 rounds as a benchmark - so I don't need to clean between prone stages).
Any chamber (RF or HP) requires attention to concentricity and great internal finish (especially in the leade area) to perform well. The 52D chamber is a fantastic chamber though - I used it for many seasons prior to becoming a sponsored shooter. I would not hesitate to use it again, as it performs very well with virtually any bullet profile. As I have mentioned before, the 2 degree leade angle typically used for the EPS profile is fine for Lapua ammunition also - and is probably more tolerant overall for those testing all manufacturers ammunition. When I started using the 1.5 degree chambers, it was simply to find something optimal for Lapua, that's all.
Regarding tuning - this is controversial (and just my very humble opinion), I think what we are doing with the manipulation of mass is timing the exit position (as the muzzle oscillates). I believe the most forgiving settings are those when the muzzle reaches the outer edge of the oscillation (and slows to reverse course). I can see this during testing - a great group bordered on either side by good / round groups. Speed would also effect exit point (faster rounds arriving earlier in the exit oscillation, slower later), and I believe that once a certain muzzle velocity is used for tuning, similar velocities would therefore be a great starting point for subsequent lots. Most would tell you that once a rifle is "tuned", it never needs touched again - but I have found that if a great lot is found of a different speed retuning is necessary to optimize it.
Wishing all of you the very best,
kev
I thought I would chime in, I am no expert - just a lifelong tinkerer and experimenter. I compete in both RF and LR Highpower, and years ago it made sense to me that we could alter engraving depth in RF just like I did with seating depth (and other variables) in HP to optimize barrel / ammunition performance.
For what its worth, I am still using the same chamber profile with Lapua ammunition - a 1.5 degree leade angle, shallow taper chamber based on the old Meyers chamber - set up to engrave .030". I have used it to win four National Titles, and I am really happy with it. It has consistently outperformed all of the other profiles I have used in many different barrel configurations (and there have been a bunch over 25 years of shooting and smithing RF rifles).
Seating depth IMHO serves several functions in RF - the engraving must be sufficient to provide an optimal starting point and gas seal, and must provide sufficient clearance at the case mouth for the accumulation of debris over an adequate number of rounds to maintain accuracy (in my case, I use approx. 200 rounds as a benchmark - so I don't need to clean between prone stages).
Any chamber (RF or HP) requires attention to concentricity and great internal finish (especially in the leade area) to perform well. The 52D chamber is a fantastic chamber though - I used it for many seasons prior to becoming a sponsored shooter. I would not hesitate to use it again, as it performs very well with virtually any bullet profile. As I have mentioned before, the 2 degree leade angle typically used for the EPS profile is fine for Lapua ammunition also - and is probably more tolerant overall for those testing all manufacturers ammunition. When I started using the 1.5 degree chambers, it was simply to find something optimal for Lapua, that's all.
Regarding tuning - this is controversial (and just my very humble opinion), I think what we are doing with the manipulation of mass is timing the exit position (as the muzzle oscillates). I believe the most forgiving settings are those when the muzzle reaches the outer edge of the oscillation (and slows to reverse course). I can see this during testing - a great group bordered on either side by good / round groups. Speed would also effect exit point (faster rounds arriving earlier in the exit oscillation, slower later), and I believe that once a certain muzzle velocity is used for tuning, similar velocities would therefore be a great starting point for subsequent lots. Most would tell you that once a rifle is "tuned", it never needs touched again - but I have found that if a great lot is found of a different speed retuning is necessary to optimize it.
Wishing all of you the very best,
kev
Hi-NV Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
Hi Kevin,
Good to see you post here. I can not thank you enough for the information you provided on the chamber specs. for Lapua. it has greatly increased the ability to find good lots. I recently shot a my best match score of 250-21X using Pistol King that I bought randomly, as you know I have been a big advocate of your chamber for those shooting Lapua only.
On tuning I agree that bullet exit timing is what tuning is about, however I do believe in using only enough weight at the muzzle to achieve the correct timing. from my experience, if the bare barrel can shoot really good, putting too much weight on the barrel will diminish the best results when trying to find that setting for the barrel as it will limit what I call the peak rise or outer edge of the oscillation you mentioned.
I am in the group of set and forget, my 1411 has had the same tuner setting for nearly 5-6 years
Lee
Lee:
So great to hear from you, I hope I get to meet you someday, you are one of my favorites on the internet for sure!! LOL
And I have appreciated your collaboration and the your willingness to share - very rare in this day in age and very much appreciated!
All the best to you and yours,
kev
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