virgin lake city brass fire forming

[rebs]

when using virgin LC brass all of the same headstamp how important is fire forming? This brass is for a Tikka T3x in 223 cal. for bench rest competition at a local club.

 

[urbanrifleman]

when using virgin LC brass all of the same headstamp how important is fire forming? This brass is for a Tikka T3x in 223 cal. for bench rest competition at a local club.

Probably shoots better the first time.

 

[HandgunHTR]

Probably shoots better the first time.

Most likely. With a non-wildcat, the only way to tell if there is a difference between virgin brass and fired brass it to actually shoot it using the exact same loads under the same conditions.

 

[RegionRat]

Some of this answer is dependent upon the coordination of your brass, chamber, and dies.

For example, when a chamber is cut "sloppy", meaning oversized intentionally for reliability of feed, this condition sets up a big difference between virgin brass and the chamber, so the dies may or may not reproduce a similar result between virgin and re-sized brass.

In some instances, the above example sets up the requirement for small bases dies or the re-size may even fail to chamber at all.

In a different example, one where the chamber is done with say competition in mind, the dimensions of fired brass are coordinated with dies such that one can hardly notice the difference between virgin brass or cycled brass. With proper annealing and case prep, a good example uses the exact same load between virgin and cycled brass.

I have many friends who take their shooting seriously, and they only shoot virgin cases because they were not able to get results they liked with their prep. It would be hard to say if they gave up too easily or not?

In my own life, I have had barrels that shot reloads better but with a significant difference to virgin brass. As you get older, your time becomes more valuable and it makes it worth the study to avoid these situations by being more selective of the gun/barrel/chamber reamers/gunsmiths you are willing to work with. It makes a big difference in time and brass management when you don't need to manage a difference between new or cycled brass, or even keep stocked with new brass.

So your answer depends on your chamber dimensions, then your dies. The only way to find out is to give it a good try. Not the more important question.... where did your virgin LC brass come from?!? It has been many years since I have seen it offered for sale and since then the contractor overseeing the plant has changed. With the current political climate and component situation, I gave up waiting for virgin LC brass. Is this brass coming available?

 

[rebs]

I got my virgin brass from Graf's some time ago and just thought why am I saving it, I might as well shoot it.

 

[RegionRat]

I got my virgin brass from Graf's some time ago and just thought why am I saving it, I might as well shoot it.

Thanks, appreciate the reply.

It has been several years since it was on the market and I have since given up waiting for it to come around.

I have enough to run for the interim while I work out the kinks on the alternatives.

 

[rebs]

if you full length size fire formed brass doesn't that eliminate the fire forming?

 

[AckleymanII]

Be sure and Cull the off center flash hole cases from the rest, and de burr the inside flash hole as some of them have quite a burr.

Distance to the lands with your intended bullet Choice will be a huge issue

good luck!

 

[Walt Krafft]

The same headstamp on LC brass means almost nothing. Over the course of a year, many sets of tooling are used, on a number of different machines. All of it mixed together at the end of the line. For benchrest use, buy some better brass.

 

[JSH]

I have a fair bit of virgin LC I use for some stuff wildcat loads. It is far from inferior as some suggest.
For serious work, I would treat it just like any premium brass for match prep. Yes some have burrs at the flash hole, I have yet to have any LC brass made since the mid 90’s to have off set flash holes.
I got in on a couple of deals with LC employees over the years. I like the year is on there just as a handy way to keep lots separated.
No doubt they get swapped around all through the year, but then again I would say that is standard through all of the brass makers.
LC is far from junk and way superior to many other common on the shelf casings.

 

[urbanrifleman]

The same headstamp on LC brass means almost nothing. Over the course of a year, many sets of tooling are used, on a number of different machines. All of it mixed together at the end of the line. For benchrest use, buy some better brass.

I don't know Walt. Good Lc is only second to Lapua to me. Wcc is also excellent.

 

[rebs]

if you full length size fire formed brass doesn't that eliminate the fire forming?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

if you full length size fire formed brass doesn't that eliminate the fire forming?

What if its smaller than the sizing die?

 

[762plinker]

even with new lc brass i would recommend WEIGHT sorting since this is match brass.
just do to a tenth then group as small as possible.

 

[Ned Ludd]

The primary reason(s) to fire-form .223 Rem brass are to generate a better fit to the chamber and to start work-hardening the case head region. The main benefits are reducing the potential for blown primers (which are not all that uncommon if one is running full pressure loads in virgin brass that may be under-sized by several thousandths at the shoulder), and potentially extending the usable life of the primer pockets. How much fire-forming affects precision is questionable as properly prepped virgin .223 Rem brass can shoot very well indeed. But it might be worth a little bit.

If you're using LC .223 Rem brass for precision BR work, I would strongly suggest sorting it on the basis of uniform case wall thickness; i.e case wall concentricity. LC brass can have non-uniform case wall and neck thickness, just as other brands. This may cause the cases with uneven wall thickness to start to "banana" after a few firings, which certainly won't improve precision.

FWIW - Sizing virgin brass with a FL bushing die will usually not even touch the shoulder if the die is set properly to re-size fire-formed brass. It is an easy way to start the neck-sizing process and generate more uniform neck tension (interference fit) than "straight out of the box", but it does not replace fire-forming.

 

[urbanrifleman]

even with new lc brass i would recommend WEIGHT sorting since this is match brass.
just do to a tenth then group as small as possible.

Waste of time from my experience.

 

[rebs]

The primary reason(s) to fire-form .223 Rem brass are to generate a better fit to the chamber and to start work-hardening the case head region. The main benefits are reducing the potential for blown primers (which are not all that uncommon if one is running full pressure loads in virgin brass that may be under-sized by several thousandths at the shoulder), and potentially extending the usable life of the primer pockets. How much fire-forming affects precision is questionable as properly prepped virgin .223 Rem brass can shoot very well indeed. But it might be worth a little bit.

If you're using LC .223 Rem brass for precision BR work, I would strongly suggest sorting it on the basis of uniform case wall thickness; i.e case wall concentricity. LC brass can have non-uniform case wall and neck thickness, just as other brands. This may cause the cases with uneven wall thickness to start to "banana" after a few firings, which certainly won't improve precision.

FWIW - Sizing virgin brass with a FL bushing die will usually not even touch the shoulder if the die is set properly to re-size fire-formed brass. It is an easy way to start the neck-sizing process and generate more uniform neck tension (interference fit) than "straight out of the box", but it does not replace fire-forming.

How heavy of a load do you use to fire form the 5.56 - 223 LC brass?

 

[RegionRat]

The LC 5.56 brass comment reminded me I was about to break into a fresh batch of brass. Since we were on the topic of alternatives to LC... here is what I do when I open a batch of 5.56 brass before I decide if this will prep exactly like the last time or if there is a warning sign that I will need to comb through it and sort or change settings.

I take a random sample of 30 or more pieces and take a few vital stats to see if there have been any signs of a major change that would cause me to need to change tool head settings or AMP codes, etc. (I run XTC short line brass in a progressive. I run 600 yard brass progressive for a club match, but will run it like mid or long range prep for any important match.)

This delivery was from recent months but I am just getting to it. This is Starline 5.56 brass with the harder heads, (not their 223 brass). Let's just call this vintage 2022 Starline 5.56 brass.

Weights are in grains, lengths are in inches.

 

[Ned Ludd]

How heavy of a load do you use to fire form the 5.56 - 223 LC brass?

There's really no definitive answer to this question. I usually try to keep predicted pressure (QuickLoad) at or below 50K psi, but that is not written in stone. The main point is not to run full pressure loads in virgin brass.

 

[20 TAC]

Don’t mean to hijack thread but I used virgin Lake City for forming my 20 cal wildcat and loved it. Till I ran out. If anyone would have a lead on 300-500 pieces of virgin 223 brass I would greatly appreciate it!