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VihtaVuori Powder Discussion

Jud96

Jud96

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I wanted to start this thread to discuss VihtaVuori powders, which I have next to no experience with. I recently bought 8lbs of N133 for my 6PPC, but I haven't even loaded any rounds with it yet. With the purchase of this 133, it got me thinking about other VV powders. In the past I have overlooked all VV powders simply because they were unknown to me and they were historically more expensive than Hodgdon and Alliant offerings. Nowadays Viht is often less or equal in price and a lot of the VV offerings, minus N555, N565, and 570, appear to be more available compared to the other brands. With that being said, how do the lesser used Vihta Vuori powders such as N135, N160, N165, N170, and N540, N550, and N560 fare compared to their more popular counterparts from Hodgdon and Alliant? I have read that newer lots of VV powders are supposed to be both temperature stable and have de-coppering agents in the powders. How temp stable are the Viht powders? I have done some research but I haven't found many reports on temp stability or many results with the above listed VV powders. Any input and data would be much appreciated. Feel free to report on your experiences with any VV powders or if you have directly compared them to other brand's offerings. Thank you!
 
Can't give you any input for the VV powders you listed , but I switched to N150 several months back , and couldn't be happier . The anti-coppering claim is true , in my case , and the barrel is a bit easier to clean , in that it comes cleaner , with less work involved .

From a shooting stand-point ; My SD has come down , and is more consistent from loaded batch of fifty rounds , and the group has tightened up if I do my part measuring the powder load . I can say that it is a sensitive powder , in that even five-tenths of a grain , or One kernel can change velocity enough to show on the Lab over the course of fifty shots . I bumped my load from 43.40gr. to 43.45gr. and gained a average of four X's in every batch of two strings thru two hundred rounds , in practice . That's two more X's per string . I'LL TAKE IT !
 
My experience with VV powders have been great. I use a few of them for my rifles.

VV-N120 Great with small cartridges (as good as Hodgdon Alliant or IMR)
VV-N130 Great with small cartridges (as good as Hodgdon Alliant or IMR)
VV-N135 Great with small cartridges (as good as Hodgdon Alliant or IMR)
VV-N140 Great with small cartridges (as good as Hodgdon Alliant or IMR)
VV-N150 Great with medium cartridges (as good as Hodgdon Alliant or IMR)
VV-N160 Great with medium cartridges (as good or better than Hodgdon Alliant or IMR)
VV-N165 Fantastic with medium cartridges (better than Hodgdon Alliant or IMR)
VV-N560 Great with medium cartridges (as good or better than Hodgdon Alliant or IMR)

I have other VV powders in which I have not tried yet including VV-N133. Planning to use this with my 6PPC once I begin loading for it. This seems to be the go to powder for the bigger portion of the Short Range Bench Rest competitors.
 
At some point, the VV powders like N140 started to have copper fouling reducers added, and their temp stability improved.
VV is a little different in how they market and announce things like this, so I can only guess it was something like 8 years ago but I am not sure.

Their 100 series are all single base and their 500 series have nitroglycerin. To say that N140 and N133 are pretty well known is an understatement since those have been used by many competitors and NATO loadings for years. Their paper catalogue used to be pretty good about information in addition to the load data, but there is no easy way to share that here.

I will share a chart I found informative a few years ago. I will not vouch for it being in date, but since many of the ones shown for comparison don't tend to change often it is still interesting. Much of the temp stability data is built into programs like QuickLoad and GRT, so there is yet another reason to have one or both of those. The small column for temp stability factor is in units of fps/degree F.

I can't imagine someone won't try N133 at some point if they run 6PPC, so you will have your own opinion soon enough. N140 used to be almost as popular as Varget and RE15 in the same sports where those were run. These days, N555 is considered a pet load for the 284 WIN and the variants popular in F-Class.

1684865727540.png
 
SKWERLZ said:
I’ve only used the slower rifle powders
N165 is close to H4831ssc, both fantastic
N170 nice H1000 alternative.
N565 is similar to R26
N570 is awesome for the bigger magnums cases like my 338 edge.
Click to expand...
How did N165 and N170 handle temperature changes?
 
I have shot a bit of 135 and 140 in dashers. Both are very good, the 135 is a touch better in my opinion. It pressures out way later than 140 and can hit all the same nodes with ease. 540 is also good, maybe great in a BR and Dasher. 530 works very well to turn a 22 Waldog into a varmint machine!

Laurie Holland has written some exemplary articles containing comparisons of VV powders to others in the same burn rate. Maybe he will share some info on this thread? @Laurie

CW
 
Jud96 said:
How did N165 and N170 handle temperature changes?
Click to expand...
You can find information on VV POWDERS here: https://www.vihtavuori.com/
The decoppering agent has been added to VV powders since 2016. In regard to the temperature stability. VV does not publish TEMP STABILITY tables for any of their powders due to the many variables that can affect this. We suggest that you do your load work up in the temperature ranges you will be shooting in for safety.
 
Walt Krafft said:
As a rough rule of thumb:
N135 is about like 4895
N140 is about like Varget
N150 is about like 4350
N160 is about like 4831
Load data is not directly interchangable but the applications are.
Click to expand...

No, especially with regard to N150 and N160. N150 stands in for VarGet in many applications such as 308 Win. (I've used it for years with 155s in this cartridge / bullet weight and would never consider any of the 4350s. It is the norm in Europe for F/TR 308 with 185-200gn bullets, and sees some use among American F/TR-ers too.) N160 is closer to the 4350s than the 4831s in most applications.

I assume your rule of thumb is at least partly based on burn rate charts. As a rule, Viht powders are 'quicker' than are shown. Burn rate charts are extremely misleading anyway, other than as a very general guides as to possible applications.

These three pieces cover comparative tests for various powders as possible alternatives to H4350 in a long-throat 7mm-08. As you can see, N550 produces significantly higher pressures than H4350 (and N550 is in turn considerably 'slower' in practice than its base N150 despite Viht saying they have the same burn speed.) We in the UK have lost all Australian manufactured Hodgdon powders (older St Marks 'sphericals' too) as a result of environmental / health regulations, so need H4895 / VarGet / H4350 / H4831 replacements among others.


http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3624

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3657

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3683
 
I ran out of Varget recently and saw VV140 8# jugs for $279 at PV. They had Varget as well, but it was quite a bit more expensive. Seems the opposite of what I remember. I threw in a # of N130 for 30BR hunting/ plinking loads, as well. Hopefully, I can make them work.
 
Mulligan said:
Maybe he will share some info on this thread? @Laurie
Click to expand...

I've put links to my H4350 alternatives results up on the previous post.

We're currently working on VarGet / H4895 replacements. Extruded alternatives to the former have been written up and the first part (of 2) for H4895 is with the editor and should be online shortly.

Here are the two VarGet alternative features:

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3811

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3856

There are 10 or 11 ball types (mostly, but not all available in the US) as possible alternatives to the two ADI / Hodgdon grades and these will be range-tested over the summer.
 
RegionRat said:
Also shows that recent N140 testing shows a difference compared to using data from before 2015.
https://wlcastleman.com/equip/shoot/varget/index.htm
Click to expand...

Thanks for putting that up - a very interesting study.

I'm currently writing up my IMR-4166 findings as part of my H4895 alternatives feature, and it is a strange (and in my view) not entirely successful powder. At least in the 223 with 77gn bullets, that is. Overall, results can be very good, but it ends up short on MVs. Looking at IMR 'Enduron' powders' loads for various cartridges in reloading manuals, there is definitely a trend there, especially for 4166 and 4955. As a result, most competition shooting users won't regard them as suitable alternatives for H4895, VarGet, and H4831/4831sc especially. Handloader magazine found similar results too in their tests.

This may be academic anyway as Hodgdon has withdrawn the entire range of five powders for 'production difficulties'. There is a definite lack of mention among potential users though, which makes me wonder how well they sold prior to their removal even in a time of powder shortages.

The other odd thing about 4166 was that when I researched 223 loads data, only Hodgdon itself offered any. Lyman No.51 has added it since for a few heavier bullet weights. Both Hodgdon and Lyman data gave very low maximum charges and also very low MVs in this application compared to its neighbours in burning rate charts, and this for a modern powder with it's said ~10% nitroglycerine content. It also appears to be lacking in the claimed enhanced temperature stability from the above exercises in your link. (The PRS people said very early on that 4451 wasn't a patch on H4350 in this regard too.)
 
Stumpy1 said:
Looking forward to the H4895 alternatives (is N135 included?).
Click to expand...

Yes. The next part has H4895 as benchmark plus Alliant AR-Comp; Lovex S060 (not available in the US as far as I can see - Accurate-2015 is the nearest equivalent); Reload Swiss RS40 (not available in the US and no equivalent, also like other RS powders pretty well unavailable here too now thanks to Putin the warmonger); N135.

The final part will have Norma 201 and 202; IMR-4166 (discontinued); Viht N530 (discontinued).

Of the eight, Norma 202 is pretty well the closest to H4895 in terms of loads / MVs.
 
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