I have a bunch of N140. Can I get decent loads for 82gr Bergers?
Vihtavuori N140 for 80gr or 82gr bullets in 223?
- Thread starter warbird2006
- Start date
karrarararararar
USAF Shooting Team
Somewhere around 24 grains will shoot with 80's. I have no experience with 82's
N140 works fine with this class of bullet weight in 223. Viht's online 223 Rem data-set now goes as high as the new Berger 85.5gn LR Hybrid (not to mention the 88 ELD and a pair of 90s), all with this powder included. So cautious use of the 85.5 and 88gn data working up in small steps will see you get there. (The 82 likely has a longer bearing surface than the 85.5 Hybrid, so may actually have a slightly lower charge ceiling.)
Laurie, what speed should I look for from 29" barrel FTR rifle?
I'm going to be working up an 85.5 LRHT load using N140 for my AR to shoot in the NRA Tactical rifle division. Hope to do it this weekend
I’m starting to suspect that the 85.5 Berger’s won’t stabilize in my 20” 1:7 Proof carbon barrel
It’s a Wylde chamber .223. Not sure of the freebore measurements.
I thought about that too. Used a tight patch on a cleaning rod and got 1 revolution over 7 inches of travel. Right on the money.
I’m suspecting my Leupold Mk4 LRT may have an issue not holding POA.
I’m going to swap scopes and see if that’s the issue.
I plugged all my data into the Berger stability calculator and it says I’m getting 1.62, which should be good.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Low stability doesnt usually manifest in groups at shorter ranges. It causes a loss of effective BC that will hurt performance at long range. Short range BR shooters tend to shoot the lowest twist that will provide minimum stability.
My experience with heavy bullets in the 223 is that most problems are the result of trying to run as fast as you read about on the inter webs.
IMO, a wylde chamber is way too short for the 85.5's.....I believe it has a FB of .078. I am running a FB of .169 and I am able to load the bullets out so the beginning of the boat tail is seated right where the neck and shoulder come together.
I don't know $h*t from applebutter but I'd venture to say if you had a longer FB, you'd be able to dial those 85s in with a little more speed.
FWIW....I am shooting service rifle with a 7twist Bartlien.
You may be right. If they prove not to work what about the 80.5 full bores? They should work in a Wylde chamber don’t you think?
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
The base-to-ogive measurements on the 80.5 Fullbore and 85.5 Hybrid are very close. Obviously, they both have slightly shorter BTOs than that of the 90 VLD by approximately .035"- .040". In my hands, the commonly-used 223 Rem ISSF reamer from PTG that cuts 0.169" freebore (fb) is somewhere around .025" to .050" short for optimal loading with the 90 VLDs, unless you're seating them into the lands (jam). That means with the 90 VLD seated at ~.021" off the lands in the 223 Rem ISSF chamber, the boattail/bearing surface junction will just barely be above the case neck/shoulder junction. By subtraction, the 80.5s and 85.5 ought to have their boattail/bearing surface junctions just under 1/4th of the way out the neck (above the shoulder) in the 223 Rem ISSF chamber with 0.169" fb.
The Wylde chamber cuts only ~.062" fb, i.e. ~.107" less than the 223 Rem ISSF reamer, and would obviously have all of these bullets seated well below the neck/shoulder. That is not necessarily a deal-breaker; the rifle will certainly still go "bang" when the trigger is pulled, but it may not be optimal for precision with those longer heavier bullets. Without a doubt, many shooters have loaded each those seated fairly far down in the case with good results, so it can certainly be done. Your 7-twist barrel ought to be plenty for stability, even with the reduced velocity from a 20" barrel relative to a much longer barrel such as commonly used in F-TR. As Wade noted, you might be giving up a very small amount of intrinsic BC, but not enough to be a major concern. In other words, these bullets should not be anywhere near key-holing or other signs of obvious gyroscopic instability. What you are really giving up when using a chamber with very short freebore for a given length bullet is velocity. This is because of the loss of effective case volume with the bullet seated well below the neck. The result is higher pressure at a given velocity, which ultimately becomes the limiting factor in the small .223 Rem case. Sometimes, using a slightly faster, fine-grained powder than you might otherwise choose for a heavy .224" bullet can help with the issues associated with a short throat and a short barrel. In other words, you might be able to get a little better velocity using the slightly faster powder. However, caution needs to be exercised when attempting this as it can be very easy to accidentally go over-pressure with the faster powders. This is a case where a reloading program such as QuickLoad can be very beneficial.
In my hands, optimizing seating depth with the heavies in .223 Rem is one of the keys to obtaining good precision. If you haven't already done this, I would recommend testing seating depth in .003" increments over a fairly wide window, perhaps from about .003" off the lands to about .030" off the lands. You ought to find an optimal seating depth window for any of those bullets somewhere within that range.
As has been noted by others, I also think the Wylde chamber is too short for shooting the 85.5s optimally. That doesn't mean you can't shoot them as I noted above, but they may be much more difficult to tune in as a result. The BTO for the 80.5 Fullbore is even a tick longer than that of the 85.5 Hybrid (0.589" vs 0.585"), so I don't think going with the lighter 80.5 bullet is going to help you much there. Although many have used it for such, the Wylde chamber wasn't really designed for .224" bullets in the 80+ gr weight range. If you really want to try a bullet better suited to the Wylde freebore, there are a couple uber-high BC 77 gr designs that might be a little better (i.e. have shorter BTO dimensions), including the Hornady 75 gr ELDM, which has a reported BTO of 0.553", and the Nosler 77 gr RDF, for which I don't know what the BTO actually is; however, it should be shorter than the 80.5 Fullbore or 85.5 Hybrid bullets. Frankly, I think you ought to be able to get any of the bullets mentioned to tune in, but at what velocity (i.e. pressure)? In fairness, if you've ever pulled a factory 77 gr SMK .223 Rem round, you know that the base of those bullets in factory ammo are seated stupidly far below the neck. That's just the way they are, and they shoot just fine. So you can probably get any of these bullets to work with enough perseverance, it's just a question of whether you can achieve the kind of velocity you'd like without being too hard on the brass. After that, seating depth testing is usually sufficient to dial in the groups.
The Wylde chamber cuts only ~.062" fb, i.e. ~.107" less than the 223 Rem ISSF reamer, and would obviously have all of these bullets seated well below the neck/shoulder. That is not necessarily a deal-breaker; the rifle will certainly still go "bang" when the trigger is pulled, but it may not be optimal for precision with those longer heavier bullets. Without a doubt, many shooters have loaded each those seated fairly far down in the case with good results, so it can certainly be done. Your 7-twist barrel ought to be plenty for stability, even with the reduced velocity from a 20" barrel relative to a much longer barrel such as commonly used in F-TR. As Wade noted, you might be giving up a very small amount of intrinsic BC, but not enough to be a major concern. In other words, these bullets should not be anywhere near key-holing or other signs of obvious gyroscopic instability. What you are really giving up when using a chamber with very short freebore for a given length bullet is velocity. This is because of the loss of effective case volume with the bullet seated well below the neck. The result is higher pressure at a given velocity, which ultimately becomes the limiting factor in the small .223 Rem case. Sometimes, using a slightly faster, fine-grained powder than you might otherwise choose for a heavy .224" bullet can help with the issues associated with a short throat and a short barrel. In other words, you might be able to get a little better velocity using the slightly faster powder. However, caution needs to be exercised when attempting this as it can be very easy to accidentally go over-pressure with the faster powders. This is a case where a reloading program such as QuickLoad can be very beneficial.
In my hands, optimizing seating depth with the heavies in .223 Rem is one of the keys to obtaining good precision. If you haven't already done this, I would recommend testing seating depth in .003" increments over a fairly wide window, perhaps from about .003" off the lands to about .030" off the lands. You ought to find an optimal seating depth window for any of those bullets somewhere within that range.
As has been noted by others, I also think the Wylde chamber is too short for shooting the 85.5s optimally. That doesn't mean you can't shoot them as I noted above, but they may be much more difficult to tune in as a result. The BTO for the 80.5 Fullbore is even a tick longer than that of the 85.5 Hybrid (0.589" vs 0.585"), so I don't think going with the lighter 80.5 bullet is going to help you much there. Although many have used it for such, the Wylde chamber wasn't really designed for .224" bullets in the 80+ gr weight range. If you really want to try a bullet better suited to the Wylde freebore, there are a couple uber-high BC 77 gr designs that might be a little better (i.e. have shorter BTO dimensions), including the Hornady 75 gr ELDM, which has a reported BTO of 0.553", and the Nosler 77 gr RDF, for which I don't know what the BTO actually is; however, it should be shorter than the 80.5 Fullbore or 85.5 Hybrid bullets. Frankly, I think you ought to be able to get any of the bullets mentioned to tune in, but at what velocity (i.e. pressure)? In fairness, if you've ever pulled a factory 77 gr SMK .223 Rem round, you know that the base of those bullets in factory ammo are seated stupidly far below the neck. That's just the way they are, and they shoot just fine. So you can probably get any of these bullets to work with enough perseverance, it's just a question of whether you can achieve the kind of velocity you'd like without being too hard on the brass. After that, seating depth testing is usually sufficient to dial in the groups.
@Ned Ludd , you are a wealth of information, as always. Thank you!
I attempted to shoot an OCW and down range results were so sporadic that it caused me to question my scope and the stability of the bullet. Nothing key-holing though, just wild fliers.
It could be as you and others have said, that seating so deep is causing the inconsistency. The ogive is well into the neck/shoulder junction.
I was able to get some chrono data though. I ran the N140 loads from 23.4g to 24.9g, where I started seeing pressure signs.
24.3g gave me 2,680fps. That would be fine for me to shoot 600 yards on a service rifle target, if I can get consistent accuracy
I attempted to shoot an OCW and down range results were so sporadic that it caused me to question my scope and the stability of the bullet. Nothing key-holing though, just wild fliers.
It could be as you and others have said, that seating so deep is causing the inconsistency. The ogive is well into the neck/shoulder junction.
I was able to get some chrono data though. I ran the N140 loads from 23.4g to 24.9g, where I started seeing pressure signs.
24.3g gave me 2,680fps. That would be fine for me to shoot 600 yards on a service rifle target, if I can get consistent accuracy
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I'd try a seating depth test next, then, and see if you can get them to tune in. If necessary, you could start with a larger increment than .003" so as to cover a wider range, then go back and cover any seating depth region that looked promising using a finer increment. With the 90 VLDs, there are occasionally shooters that find they don't seem to want to shoot jumped. Although jamming heavy bullets in the .223 Rem isn't the first thing I usually try for a number of reasons, sometimes these shooters find the 90s will shoot tight groups when seated in a fairly narrow seating depth window from about .004" to .007" into the lands. It might be that the 85.5s behave similarly, even with the Hybrid Ogive. However, you might want to back off on the charge weight a tenth or two due to the higher start pressure with a jammed bullet. The 80.5s have a tangent ogive, and should be fairly tolerant with respect to seating depth. That doesn't mean their seating depth doesn't need to be optimized via testing, but the optimal window, when identified, may be a little wider. If you can't tune the 85s acceptably, the 80.5s might be a reasonable alternative even if they don't buy anything over the 85s with respect to effective case volume due to how deeply they will be seated in the neck in the Wylde chamber.
FWIW - I shoot the 80.5s out of a rifle with zero freebore, using H322, which is a slightly faster than typical powder for that bullet weight in .223 Rem. They are seated well below the neck/shoulder but shoot very well. As I alluded to above, a substantially reduced charge weight with the faster H322 powder that has really small kernels was optimal as compared to my other .223 Rem loads with H4895. IIRC, the load with H322 ended up at 22.5 gr, almost 1.5 gr lower than I would typically expect in a .223 Rem load with heavies. Obviously, part of that was the zero fb chamber, but part was due to the higher burn rate and really small kernels. I'm sure if you keep experimenting with it, you'll find something that works.
FWIW - I shoot the 80.5s out of a rifle with zero freebore, using H322, which is a slightly faster than typical powder for that bullet weight in .223 Rem. They are seated well below the neck/shoulder but shoot very well. As I alluded to above, a substantially reduced charge weight with the faster H322 powder that has really small kernels was optimal as compared to my other .223 Rem loads with H4895. IIRC, the load with H322 ended up at 22.5 gr, almost 1.5 gr lower than I would typically expect in a .223 Rem load with heavies. Obviously, part of that was the zero fb chamber, but part was due to the higher burn rate and really small kernels. I'm sure if you keep experimenting with it, you'll find something that works.
What level of MV are you seeing / barrel length?
Years ago, I was intrigued by Ken Waters' Pet Loads 30-06 in-depth report in Handloader. One of his most accurate combinations was a 190gn Winchester (??) HPBT Match over a mild load of H322 that must have had a low case-fill ratio. This was apparently a common combination in 200 yard match stages at the tail-end of 30-06's great competitive days before 308 Win became the norm.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Laurie: approximately 2850 fps out of a 26" barrel with the 80.5 Fullbore over 22.5 gr H322, COAL = 2.324". It's a little on the warm side, but the brass has held up just fine. The fill ratio for this load with the 80.5 sunk well below the neck/shoulder was not as low as you might imagine; QL estimates it at 96.7%. One of the main reasons I went with H322 was that the kernels are so tiny. I'm not sure I could have gotten anywhere close to the same velocity with H4895 or Varget without having a substantially compressed load.
Last edited:
How much higher in charge weight with a 80gr seated long can you go? I am just trying to get a feel, my 18" wylde chambered gas gun, 24.0 grains of several powder was pretty close to right. I just bought a bolt gun with a longer throat. Seating the bullets out much father frees up case capacity and would lower pressure correct? Allowing a higher charge?
I am working with 80gr ELDs and N140 at the moment.
Started at 24.2 and went up to 25.0, loaded single rounds just to test pressure signs and not waste components. I will be checking each piece of brass closely before moving on to the next. This gun is new to me but I can seat the 80s pretty far before hitting jam.
I am working with 80gr ELDs and N140 at the moment.
Started at 24.2 and went up to 25.0, loaded single rounds just to test pressure signs and not waste components. I will be checking each piece of brass closely before moving on to the next. This gun is new to me but I can seat the 80s pretty far before hitting jam.
Last edited:
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.