Video of Bullet Blow Up (was: The things one sees at a match)

[Turbulent Turtle]

The scorers job is to watch the shooter and make sure the shot goes off, then record the actual score.

Not the scorers job to watch mirage, wind flags, waving grass, exploding bullets or other shooters all the while trying to make comparative wind calls for said shooter...Not so much with E-targets but on the manual targets that is how shots get missed...Nothing worse than getting to the end of your string and your scorer says..you got 1-2 shots left.

With regular targets, the vast majority of scorers would have their nose glued to the spotting scope while the shooter was doing his thing. I have seen far too many occurrences of the scorer pulling away from the scope and asking "did you shoot?"

With etargets, we now have scorers eyes glued to the tablet, and even fiddling around looking at other targets.

A scorer should be looking at the shooter to see then the trigger is pulled and the rifle fired. If the shots are not registering on target, it is not difficult to monitor the shooter and also detect a blow up.

 

[davidjoe]

Denys, when the target is capable of ghost-ringing a shot in the black, then sometimes taking it off completely, it’s hard to assume infallibility.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I don't think all missed shots on ShotMarker are a direct result of bullet failure. I suspect there are a subset of shots that aren't picked up as a result of bullets blowing up; but to your point outside of 147gr Hornadys, and somebody pushing 7mm Bergers VERY fast, bullets blowing up is not a terribly common occurrence.

I do not disagree with that and I did not intend to say that all missed shots are due to blow ups.

However, this weekend I was aware of very few dropped shots. I even commented on that with Ray and others. When I have three shooters fire their strings without a hiccup on the same target and a fourth one has issues, something is afoot. It has always been easy to just blame the targets immediately, but that's not reality; there is definitely a chance that bullets are blowing up.

The reasons for a failure to detect on a e target are:
1- Subsonic round.
2- Bullet never showed up or missed the target.
3- Equipment malfunction.
4- Simultaneous arrivals on adjacent targets.

The Sensor monitor on the Shot Marker is very useful in determining the issue, especially with #3 and #4. It's useless with #1 and #2 if the bullet blew up.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Denys, when the target is capable of ghost-ringing a shot in the black, then sometimes taking it off completely, it’s hard to assume infallibility.

Spoken like a lawyer. Now what are you trying to say?

 

[Bob L.]

I don’t think that many shooters even consider that a bullet may be blowing up. Even fewer have ever seen it or know where and what to look for. This thread and the video shoot help educate. Good thread TT.

 

[davidjoe]

It’s hard stuff. No-reads aren’t consecutive and neither are blowups, shoulder bumps/hangfire misses and squib load misses. The NRA bumbles this. The target has to no read consecutively or it’s forgiven and -10, and the validation shot wasn’t thought out. Thankfully the rules defer.

Normally a scorer cannot see a blowup or squib impact because they don’t happen close enough.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

It’s hard stuff. No-reads aren’t consecutive and neither are blowups, shoulder bumps/hangfire misses and squib load misses. The NRA bumbles this. The target has to no read consecutively or it’s forgiven and -10, and the validation shot wasn’t thought out. Thankfully the rules defer.

Normally a scorer cannot see a blowup or squib impact because they don’t happen close enough.

Don't get me started about the NRA and their confusing, self-contradicting, incomplete and after-the-fact rules.

Like I said earlier, when a target had 3 shooters go through back to back with nary a burp from the targets then the fourth shooter comes up and has issues; the first suspicion should not be on the target.

You are right that the vast majority of scorers have never seen this. All the blow-ups I have seen have been within the first 100 yards. (Which makes sense because further out they would be difficult/impossible to see.) My personal theory is that if a bullet is going to explode, it will do so soon after leaving the embracing confines of the barrel. Couple that with the fact the bullet is at its maximum stress right at that time and that this stress diminishes with distance, it only makes it likely that blow-ups are near the muzzle.

Each shot at a rifle match is far more critical than in pedestrian uses of rifles such as hunting or warfare; in a match we must account for every round that is fired. If the bullet leaves the barrel, the shot has been fired and must be accounted for. When the scorer detects that a shot has been fired, the score must be recorded. If no shot is detected on the target, that should be a 0. Squibs, blowups, crossfires, misses; all are 0.

What we are discussing now is a range alibi; when the range equipment (or target puller) fails.

 

[shoot4fun]

I've seen that puff before and it was not Hornady bullets in every case.
Bergers can do it too!
A good buddy had a 22-6MM built using a Brux 8 twist barrel. The purpose was for a 1,000+ yard prairie dog kill and the load he developed was extremely accurate, showed no pressure signs and never a sign of trouble brewing. Loads were developed at 450' ASL.
At 3,500 ASL it all worked perfectly until the 4th round and that's when we started seeing the puff of smoke.
That happened in around 2006 so it isn't a new phenomenon at all.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

(snip)
That happened in around 2006 so it isn't a new phenomenon at all.

Oh good Lord, No. This is not new by any means. What is new, to me, is the fact it's happening with larger caliber bullets like the 6.5 and 7mm. I had only ever heard of it occurring with .224s and 6mm. Now it's infecting the larger calibers.

Of course, this is also due to the efforts of people like David who are pushing back the concept of "extreme" and are launching into the balistics unknown.

In the olden days, cartographers made maps for ancient mariners where they labeled unknown areas with the words "Here be Dragons." Or words with a similar meaning in other languages.

For David and others who share a similar predilection, we should have a sign that says "There be blowups."

When a .308 bullet blows up exiting an F-TR rifle, it will be time for me to call it quits and go back to golf.

 

[Delfuego]

I contacted Hornady and they claim to have never heard of such thing.

I have heard that answer from them too. The guy I spoke with was a pretty defensive jerk. I was trying to be as polite as possible, because I actually thought they may help.

Denys I'd recommend editing title of thread to include some reference to 147 eld. It will help someone doing a search on the subject capture the thread.

Same sh*t happens with the 180 ELDM too. Guess we should all run out and buy the shiny new A-tips for $80/100. I'm sure when those go sideways, Hornady will acknowledge the issue.

 

[CPerry]

I have heard that answer from them too. The guy I spoke with was a pretty defensive jerk. I was trying to be as polite as possible, because I actually thought they may help.

I pretty much got the same vibe from the gentleman I spoke to. I wouldn't call him a jerk per se but he definitely wasn't interested in hearing my story and didn't seem interested in helping; he didn't even seem curious. At that point, I knew the phone call was pointless.

I wonder what he would've said if I would have asked for them to send me some complimentary rounds. I mean, after all, blowing up $1.20 a round ammo kind of sucks.

 

[shoot4fun]

I pretty much got the same vibe from the gentleman I spoke to. I wouldn't call him a jerk per se but he definitely wasn't interested in hearing my story and didn't seem interested in helping; he didn't even seem curious. At that point, I knew the phone call was pointless.

I wonder what he would've said if I would have asked for them to send me some complimentary rounds. I mean, after all, blowing up $1.20 a round ammo kind of sucks.

They did send me a comp box of 6.5PRC brass when I had some unexplainable issues with it.

 

[dskogman]

David is certainly the resident expert on blowing up bullets! He’s the only one I know that shot a 338 Lapua in F Open

 

[GSS]

After mulling over the responses and various links listed overnight, I have a new concern, as a reluctant match director.

For the longest time, I thought exploding bullets were very rare, almost unheard of. This thread has disabused me of that notion. When you add the etarget component to the mix, things get very sticky.

Some people (a lot) are still reluctant to trust the etargets. Having MD'ed several matches with full e-targets, I still get the push back from some people who complain that the target is not picking up their shot. Indeed the very reason I was down at the end of the line on Sunday when I took that video is that I was hearing that someone was having issues the targets and their shots were not being recorded. As it turned out, it was only by sheer stroke of luck that I actually saw a blow up and then was able to video the next and final one.

If I had not seen it, I would have been worrying about the etargets and trying to figure out what the issue was. The shooter was hitting the target and getting scores, for most of his shots, but some were not. I watched his form and could not detect how he would be missing; his gun handling and trigger pulling were fine. He was not cross-firing because no one else was complaining about extra shots on their targets, (and trust me, they do.) Self-immolating bullets were the furthest thing from my mind, especially since he was firing factory ammo in a factory rifle.

And now I read that David was blowing up a 7mm Berger?

This episode is telling me several things:
1- Bullets blow up a lot more than I ever thought possible.
2- The etargets are working great, but if the bullet doesn't get there, they can't record it.
3- The scorers are not doing their job, or they do not know what they are looking at.
4- I need to update the match procedures for non-recording shots.

I am in the same situation with Shotmarkers in matches at my club.
So far in all but one instance where shots are not registering it has been wrong dope on gun with bullets either off paper high or low. I just a service rifle shooter and I just ask them if they have a solid zero and the correct dope on. I then get a funny look and they say of course I do. So I get behind them with my spotting scope and watch the bullet trace. The look they give back is even better when I tell them how many minutes up or down to go before taking another shot. That shot and future shots register.

Its seems harder to get scorers to pay attention when using E Targets.
Scorers in the past would watch the trace if they had to call for a mark and get them on paper.

I can't grasp showing up to shoot a matcvh without a zero as I never see that in Cross the course matches we shoot from 200, 300 - 600 yards. It's the 3 x 600 prone shooters that seem to be at least 2 of at every match... weird

 

[davidjoe]

I’m just going to order some lathe turned solids ).

Relay 3 of match 1 was fine. 198-8. Then it got really hot and velocity rose 60 FPS.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

David is certainly the resident expert on blowing up bullets! He’s the only one I know that shot a 338 Lapua in F Open

We had a 338 LM shooter at a 300yard match, maybe 11 years ago. We placed him at the extreme end of the line several lanes away from others. In those days, we had much smaller matches.

I don't remember much, but he was loud and only showed up that one time. He didn't appreciate not having the muzzle brake on his rifle, I guess.

I wouldn't either, but then again, I'm a wuss when it comes to recoil.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I’m just going to order some lathe turned solids ).

Relay 3 of match 1 was fine. 198-8. Then it got really hot and velocity rose 60 FPS.

You're not supposed to leave your ammunition box in the sun.

Might I suggest the following item in which to store your ammo:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07H3GHMYF/?tag=accuratescom-20

 

[Doug Beach]

A fellow shooter had multiple blow-ups last week, shooting 142 & 150 SMK’s out of a 1/7.5 6.5-284. I didn’t see the poof, but we heard it, and nothing made it to the target. This was interspersed with nines and better on the 600yd F target. He was testing seating depth, groups were running 2.5-5”. For both bullets, the blow-ups occurred when rounds were seated to touch. Otherwise identical rounds had no blow-ups.

 

[Ballisticboy]

Some years ago we were firing a heavy machine gun with numerous tracking systems on the bullets. With one particular batch of bullets a number of them were falling apart after travelling a short distance leading to major safety concerns, other batches of the same bullets worked perfectly. Some of the jacket remains of the exploding bullets were recovered. They were all made of thinner metal than expected and in each case the rifling had cut through a large thickness of the jacket significantly weakening it. So it appeared that a combination of manufacturing inaccuracies were causing the problem such as a tight barrel, thin jackets and large bullet diameters.

Some days you are just unlucky.

 

[Acyr]

I have seen multiple instances of bullets blowing up. Each of those never made it out past 100 yards. Latest one was a couple of weeks ago at 1000 with the shooter using Noslers out of a 308. He was to my right with wind from the right. Every so often I would get this grey cloud of smoke drift past my line of sight. I thought what the hell kind of powder is he shooting? . Then I heard them talk about the shots not registering on his e target. I realized what was happening and hollered over that he was probably blowing up bullets. A couple of more shots and they realized that was the case.