Video of Bullet Blow Up (was: The things one sees at a match)

[davidjoe]

FWIW - I was shooting 147 ELD-Ms at Bayou yesterday on a rifle with ~2200 rounds on it, and didn't have a problem (right at 2800FPS). Not sure what to make of that. That said, I saw the same thing on my lane with some 7mm bullets blowing up; go figure.

Indeed you did. I won’t name the bullet but it rhymes with burger. Later relays at the Bayou range in summer see 60 FPS more at 1,000, which we know now because of etargets. 2 grains difference between the seasons.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Indeed you did. I won’t name the bullet but it rhymes with burger. Later relays at the Bayou range in summer see 60 FPS more at 1,000, which we know now because of etargets. 2 grains difference between the seasons.

What's the twist rate in your barrel? If the hamburger bullets are blowing up also, the world is coming to an end.

 

[davidjoe]

Do you have a rocket, because these are 9 twists. However, 2,050+ on the target chrono at 1,000 in the late relays and 36 inches of friction is the culprit. Caught us by surprise, though. We needed break in these two new barrels. Twice in one and once in the other. Surmising that those no-reads were this problem after the last one that was seen.

 

[davidjoe]

I’m informed that my cases can hold less powder, so that it will be.

 

[lawman29]

Denys this is a well documented issue:

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/hornady-eld-ms-gone-and-good-riddance.3954345/

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/147-eld-coming-apart.3952796/

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/more-problems-with-hornady-bullets.3952835/

I have personally witnessed a shooter struggle for 2 years with the 147's in a .260 shooting F Class at Billings and Missoula. Numerous bullet failures with at least 2 different barrels. The last ones were at the Regional Match in September of 2018 at the Deep Creek Range in Missoula. He finally gave up.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Denys this is a well documented issue:

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/hornady-eld-ms-gone-and-good-riddance.3954345/

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/147-eld-coming-apart.3952796/

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/more-problems-with-hornady-bullets.3952835/

I have personally witnessed a shooter struggle for 2 years with the 147's in a .260 shooting F Class at Billings and Missoula. Numerous bullet failures with at least 2 different barrels. The last ones were at the Regional Match in September of 2018 at the Deep Creek Range in Missoula. He finally gave up.

Thank you, and now we have a video that shows the problem, to add to the documentation.

I must confess I have never paid attention to this issue before for several reasons:
1- I don't care about Hornady ELDs.
2- I don't do 6.5CM.
3- I don't do factory Hornady ammo.

Now, thanks to your post, I'm going to have to go read these threads. Sigh.

 

[CPerry]

Evening fellas. I was the one with the exploding 147's. This was my first time out at Bayou shooting the 1,000 comp as I typically shoot factory rifles with factory ammo and my .308 goes sub before a 1,000, therefore doesn't work on the e-targets. It was a strange day of shooting or at least it seemed to be. According to the computer software as well as the Kestrel, I should've been dialing around 8.3 mils to reach a 1,000 for the 147's. I ended up at around 9.7 to get there. I thought back on it and contemplated on if this was because the projectiles were coming apart, therefore running slower. I haven't quite figured out what was going on to cause such a difference in calculations. According to the e-targets, I was running around 1348 when it crossed through. When I swapped to the 140's, I didn't have any problems and my elevation adjustment was correct according to what everything told me. I took the rifle out to another range after the comp and verified the zero again and then elevation via dialing as well as holdover in the reticle and everything was spot on with the 140's out to 300. As soon as I put another 147 in, I ran into the same problem. I contacted Hornady and they claim to have never heard of such thing. I gave them the lot # of the rounds I was shooting and they also said I could send some in for them to test in their lab. I'm taking the rifle tomorrow to have it scoped and gone over thoroughly. I can't seem to find anything wrong with it but I also don't have much experience in finding such problems. I'm new to LR shooting and I've shot the 600yd at Bayou twice and then now the 1,000. I had onc Accuracy 1st class in between those in Lampasas and I planned to take this gun to an upcoming trip to Utah with them on the 20th of this month. I'll try and update after tomorrow to see if anything was found. Until then, I plan to stick to 140's and think I'm going to swap over to the Bergers.

 

[Rtheurer]

SInce I lost three shots on our Long Range Regional in 2017, I have personally witnessed two other guys shooting the 147's in different configurations that lost bullets. Last one was Factory 6.5PRC ammo a guy brought out to try F class.

 

[22DASHER]

I contacted Hornady and they claim to have never heard of such thing.

LOL. Of course they haven’t. Nightforce is the same way when problems arise.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Let's understand a few things here. The MV of the 147 ELD 6.5 CM is stated at 2700FPS. This translates to a rotational velocity of 243,000RPM. This is fast, but not very high compared to some others. My 80grainer leave my 7.7 twisted F-TR rifle at 262,000RPM. The 75 A-max that I used to shoot, left even faster and never blew up. A 55gr bulllet in an AR-15 with a 1:7 twist will be spinning at 329,000RPM.

As I was looking at the shots, I noticed that a few of them left a "smoke" trail but still made it to the target. Others just flew to the target trailing nothing.

Since the rifle was brand-new or very new, I could not help but think that something was nicking the jackets of the bullets and in some cases, the damage was enough to destroy the integrity of the jacket and cause the blowup. Sometimes the damage was not as severe and the jacket held but did shed a bit of material at the start of the journey.

I have a hard time believing that Hornady would produce bullets with such poor jackets, but then again, we are talking Hornady here, not Berger or even Sierra.

So unless the barrel is damaged in some way, I would look at the remnants of tool marks from the chambering process.

Denys - the following thread has probably the best explanation(s) for some of the things that are occurring during jacket failure:

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/comet-tails.3972620/page-2.

Whether jacket failure actually leads to complete bullet disintegration, or merely to the formation of "comet tails" on a target face, to some extent has to do with the distance the bullet travels. Although jackets/bullets can fail as close as a few yards out in extreme cases such as the one you recorded, an even higher percentage will fail given sufficient flight distance once the initiating event has occurred.

Clearly a number of contributing factors are involved, including frictional heat generated between the land surface and the bullet jacket, micro-cracks, folds, and/or pores in the jacket, jacket thickness and "toughness", barrel twist rate, velocity, [rifling] land shape, and probably a few more. Obviously, defects or anomalies (i.e. damage) in the barrel could easily be the initiating factor in some cases. However, it is also clear that the process can occur in a barrel that is not damaged, especially when the bullet jacket stress tolerances are exceeded by the forces generated by velocity/twist rate.

I have lost jackets with both Berger 90 VLD and Hornady 88 gr ELDM .224" bullets in an F-TR .223 Rem rifle with a relatively fast twist rate (6.8-twist). However, the 90 gr Sierra Matchking bullets fired from the exact same rifle at comparable (or greater) velocities have yet to fail, so clearly bullet design differences can also be a contributing factor. I have spoken with various company representatives about these bullet failures and basically have been told that if your loads exceed jacket tolerances (i.e. >/= ~300,000 RPM), too bad. In my case that's probably a fair reply, as the .223 Rem F-TR loads I'm using with the heavies are, in fact, hot enough to typically kill the brass primer pockets in 3 to 4 firings (or less). However, it's probably not a fair statement when people are losing jackets with mild loads and/or with commercial ammunition preps, and suggests poor jacket design is a major contributing factor in some cases.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

You know, I thought about this more, and in retrospect I'm 99.9% sure I've had issues with the 147s coming apart recently. That said, I'm leaning towards it being specific lots of bullets having the problem.

About 6-8 months ago I purchased 1,000 of them from Midway, and lucky me, I got 10 individual 100rd boxes, comprised of about 8 unique lots. Much to my surprise they measure/weigh very consistently, and shoot way better than a 30-cent bullet should. On one lot however, I had some major issues.

Went shooting with my dad (this is memorable, because it's probably the 2nd-3rd time it's happened in my life) and wanted to introduce him to LR shooting. We set a 12" gong up at 400 yards on a hot, no-wind day (an absolute cake walk of a shot right?). The only thing different about this day was I was fire forming new brass, and had loaded yet another new lot of those 147s.

999 times out of 1000 I'd expect to first round hit (or at the very least 2nd round hit) a plate at that distance. I shot 22 rounds (holding different edges of the plate etc.)and didn't hit it once. In fact, I couldn't spot impacts on a dirt backstop on the shots. At the time it was somewhat embarrassing, but more than that it was frustrating as hell because I couldn't explain what was happening. I ended up pulling the bullets and dumped them in a coffee can somewhere.

In retrospect, my father wouldn't have known what to look for, and there's a minuscule chance you're seeing a blow up from behind the rifle.

I've since shot the 147s (a different lot than mentioned above), and they shot very well; out of the same barrel only with a higher round count for that matter. In fact, a crappy 'sharpshooter' rated LR shooter like me had such good luck with them this past weekend, I ordered 2,000 of them (and 1k 140 Hybrids, thank god) on the drive back home from Houston.

This thread, and the realization above makes me nervous as hell about that purchase.

 

[okie]

You know, I thought about this more, and in retrospect I'm 99.9% sure I've had issues with the 147s coming apart in the recently. That said, I'm leaning towards it being specific lots of bullets having the problem.

About 6-8 months ago I purchased 1,000 of them from Midway, and lucky me, I got 10 individual 100rd boxes, comprised of about 8 unique lots. Much to my surprise they measure/weigh very consistently, and shoot way better than a 30-cent bullet should. On one lot however, I had some major issues.

Went shooting with my dad (this is memorable, because it's probably the 2nd-3rd time it's happened in my life) and wanted to introduce him to LR shooting. We set a 12" gong up at 400 yards on a hot, no-wind day (an absolute cake walk of a shot right?). The only thing different about this day was I was fire forming new brass, and had loaded yet another new lot of those 147s.

999 times out of 1000 I'd expect to first round hit (or at the very least 2nd round hit) a plate at that distance. I shot 22 rounds (holding different edges of the plate etc.)and didn't hit it once. In fact, I couldn't spot impacts on a dirt backstop on the shots. At the time it was somewhat embarrassing, but more than that it was frustrating as hell because I couldn't explain what was happening. I ended up pulling the bullets and dumped them in a coffee can somewhere.

In retrospect, my father wouldn't have known what to look for, and there's a minuscule chance you're seeing a blow up from behind the rifle.

I've since shot the 147s (a different lot than mentioned above), and they shot very well; out of the same barrel only with a higher round count for that matter. In fact, a crappy 'sharpshooter' rated LR shooter like me had such good luck with them this past weekend, I ordered 2,000 of them (and 1k 140 Hybrids, thank god) on the drive back home from Houston.

This thread, and the realization above makes me nervous as hell about that purchase.

I would use the return label...

 

[lawman29]

Denys I'd recommend editing title of thread to include some reference to 147 eld. It will help someone doing a search on the subject capture the thread.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Denys I'd recommend editing title of thread to include some reference to 147 eld. It will help someone doing a search on the subject capture the thread.

Yeah, I was reading the responses and the links on my tablet last night. (Great way to fall asleep.) This morning, I was looking at the count of views on the video and it was north of 500. I thought to myself that if I changed the title, it would grow even more. So I changed it and then saw your post.

I'm going to leave it as is and not make it about the 147 ELD, but it seems to be happening a lot and to a lot more bullets than I first suspected. Plus, I have a new concern so I want to appeal to as many as possible.

 

[Raythemanroe]

I guess this is what happens when you are using the 6.5 Creedmoor lasers.


Ray

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

After mulling over the responses and various links listed overnight, I have a new concern, as a reluctant match director.

For the longest time, I thought exploding bullets were very rare, almost unheard of. This thread has disabused me of that notion. When you add the etarget component to the mix, things get very sticky.

Some people (a lot) are still reluctant to trust the etargets. Having MD'ed several matches with full e-targets, I still get the push back from some people who complain that the target is not picking up their shot. Indeed the very reason I was down at the end of the line on Sunday when I took that video is that I was hearing that someone was having issues the targets and their shots were not being recorded. As it turned out, it was only by sheer stroke of luck that I actually saw a blow up and then was able to video the next and final one.

If I had not seen it, I would have been worrying about the etargets and trying to figure out what the issue was. The shooter was hitting the target and getting scores, for most of his shots, but some were not. I watched his form and could not detect how he would be missing; his gun handling and trigger pulling were fine. He was not cross-firing because no one else was complaining about extra shots on their targets, (and trust me, they do.) Self-immolating bullets were the furthest thing from my mind, especially since he was firing factory ammo in a factory rifle.

And now I read that David was blowing up a 7mm Berger?

This episode is telling me several things:
1- Bullets blow up a lot more than I ever thought possible.
2- The etargets are working great, but if the bullet doesn't get there, they can't record it.
3- The scorers are not doing their job, or they do not know what they are looking at.
4- I need to update the match procedures for non-recording shots.

 

[davidjoe]

Awesome video Denys

Hey Joe, now the council is all present. At least now I know where the “extreme outer limits” on the packaging is. I’m labeling a new shelf area for “Bayou in the summer” loads. The barrel‘s temps simply get and stay hotter even with the cover.

 

[STOMP442]

[QUOTE="I contacted Hornady and they claim to have never heard of such thing. I gave them the lot # of the rounds I was shooting and they also said I could send some in for them to test in their lab. [/QUOTE]

They told me the same thing and I contacted them over a year ago. I even sent bullets in for them to test and never heard a thing back.

 

[Rope2horns]

3- The scorers are not doing their job, or they do not know what they are looking at.

The scorers job is to watch the shooter and make sure the shot goes off, then record the actual score.

Not the scorers job to watch mirage, wind flags, waving grass, exploding bullets or other shooters all the while trying to make comparative wind calls for said shooter...Not so much with E-targets but on the manual targets that is how shots get missed...Nothing worse than getting to the end of your string and your scorer says..you got 1-2 shots left.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

This episode is telling me several things:
1- Bullets blow up a lot more than I ever thought possible.
2- The etargets are working great, but if the bullet doesn't get there, they can't record it.
3- The scorers are not doing their job, or they do not know what they are looking at.
4- I need to update the match procedures for non-recording shots.

I don't think all missed shots on ShotMarker are a direct result of bullet failure. I suspect there are a subset of shots that aren't picked up as a result of bullets blowing up; but to your point outside of 147gr Hornadys, and somebody pushing 7mm bergers VERY fast, bullets blowing up is not a terribly common occurrence.