Doug Beach
Silver $$ Contributor
Tape a (ahem) personal massager to the side of the measure. You can try different settings!
vibrating a powder measure
- Thread starter divingin
- Start date
I built a measure vibrator once for my RCBS uniflow. I used a phone vibrator, 1 AAA battery & a mercury switch. My prototype was a bit rough but it screwed on with the handle screws. If I can find it, I'll post a picture. When the handle was in the fill position the switch came on. Unfortunately, my initial experiments showed no improvements trying various powders so it went into the junk box. I have a better idea, but thats another story & a another project.
divingin
Gold $$ Contributor
To address a number of posts, the measure is the Hornady measure, using a baffle set as low as possible, with the pistol rotor installed.
I know with Harrell's measures, a lot of reloaders do a double-knock kind of throw: raise the handle to the stop, knock it against the stop once or twice, then lower it. That's kind of what I'm imagining, except that with the case activated throw, you can't really do that, hence the automagic external vibration.
It sounds like it's not a normal practice, so I guess I'll need to do some experimentation. The cell phone vibration motors are about 2 bucks from robotic supply places; wiring it up may spur me to put some LED lighting on the press at the same time (getting older, and not seeing as well any more.)
Thanks for the input, guys.
I know with Harrell's measures, a lot of reloaders do a double-knock kind of throw: raise the handle to the stop, knock it against the stop once or twice, then lower it. That's kind of what I'm imagining, except that with the case activated throw, you can't really do that, hence the automagic external vibration.
It sounds like it's not a normal practice, so I guess I'll need to do some experimentation. The cell phone vibration motors are about 2 bucks from robotic supply places; wiring it up may spur me to put some LED lighting on the press at the same time (getting older, and not seeing as well any more.)
Thanks for the input, guys.
Any time I've introduced an artificial form of agitation to a powder measure,It's made the variation worse.I use an old Lyman 55 for most of my loading and the first thing my mentor told me to do was to throw the knocker away.I put it in a drawer under my bench and forgot about it until a few months ago when I got it out and put it on the measure again.Using 2 scales to confirm my experiment,I used it on several types and amounts of powder.The results weren't surprising-heavy charges of coarse extruded powder changed the most,lighter chargest of fine powder the least.The big deal was the 10-15 % variation the knocker caused.
I've had the exact opposite experience from a Lyman 55 with ball and small grain extruded powders. Because they don't have a stock powder baffle, for me the knocker helps keep the settling and density of the powder consistent. Not saying your way is wrong, but I've have thrown many thousands of very consistent charges, verified with a scale using the knocker. IMO the most critical factor is to use an identical number of knocks (2 in my case) with the exact same force. The other is without a stock powder baffle, is to keep the powder amount in the measure consistent, frequently topping off the level.
For corn flake type flake powders like 800X, in my opinion the knocker is MANDATORY and by using it forcefully I haven't had any of the problems some people complain about with this type propellant. I always reach for the Lyman 55 when using this powder sometimes described as "Doritos" for 45 Super and high performance lead 10 gauge shotgun loads.
Every powder thrower depends on how you use it... They need to be done the same with every stroke... My Dillon stays very nice compared to my uniflow simply because it's activated the same way with each stroke of the handle.... Even a MEC shotgun loader will differ greatly depending on how hard you move the charge bar back in forth... I smack it over rather than shove it simply because I find the charge although normally is higher is more consistent.... Since it has bushings for a volume throw you can literally add a few tenths by being ( rough ) with it....
I tap any powder thrower when I first install powder to settle it and after that I don't.... It's also important to me to keep the fill level fairly the same.... When it gets lower I add fresh powder and settle it by tapping , then throw and weigh a few before starting over... Keeping your fill level the same and working the handle the same everytime will fix alot of your problems with a powder thrower...
Also , get the small drums for the uniflow if your throwing small pistol charges.... There's a reason almost all throwers have a small , medium and large drum.... Even Dillon has extra small to extra large , using the correct one in my opinion is necessary for consistency....
I tap any powder thrower when I first install powder to settle it and after that I don't.... It's also important to me to keep the fill level fairly the same.... When it gets lower I add fresh powder and settle it by tapping , then throw and weigh a few before starting over... Keeping your fill level the same and working the handle the same everytime will fix alot of your problems with a powder thrower...
Also , get the small drums for the uniflow if your throwing small pistol charges.... There's a reason almost all throwers have a small , medium and large drum.... Even Dillon has extra small to extra large , using the correct one in my opinion is necessary for consistency....
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i haven't read every post but enough to get the idea, I think, and thought I'd add my experiences with a cheapo Uniflo powder measure..with some success. With a couple of mods and just a few minutes of time, it became one of the most accurate powder measures I've ever seen. Better than the most expensive ones even.
For starters, they aren't all created equal. Some have a very good fit between the drum and the housing, while others..not so much. The couple that I've modified fit well here and that aspect didn't need further attention, making this an easy job. I'll try to post a couple of pics later. Hopefully between my post and the pics, you'll be able to make sense of both.
I don't agree with the ones saying a long, skinny powder chamber is the way to go. That kinda flies in the face of the whole idea of a vibrator, in the first place, when I assume the idea there is to settle the powder inside of the column better. Well, a short column will settle less. I hope we can agree on that much.
The mods I make are to the measure body and handle. I start by milling a flat on the handle side of the casr body..just enough to smooth up and uniform the surface. Then I drill and tap the handle for a nylon tipped set screw. You're probably already getting the idea now! I use the set screw to take out side play at the handle by putting the tip of the set screw at or near a light drag setting on the machined flat on the casr body.
Next..same principle but its the best part, in terms of improvement.
I machine the rough cast finish of the slot in the body, where the spindle protrudes from the drum, to be smoth and uniform as well. I then make a bushing for the threaded spindle that is a light friction fit, then lap to size by adding a little lapping compound and working the handle after reassembly of the unit.
The end result is that the drum goes from having about .050 sided to side clearance, to about .003 clearance and I can take out any angular variance with the set screw in the handle. This minimizes the effect of the needed clearance between the od of the drum and the id of the cast housing.
Ultimately, this results in a powder measure that's better than even the most expensive custom measures out there...with the powders I use. Powder still makes a big difference! Some just don't meter as well as others.
I use a fair amount of LT32, n133, 8208 and n120. With these powders i can routinely hold charge variances to well less than a tenth grain. There are other tricks that I don't incorporate, as I haven't seen the need for short range BR, like using a baffle and/or a weight on top of the powder column in the measure. I still use the factory powder stem, which brings up the down side to this measure vs the more expensive models. That being, adjusting the measure for different throw amounts. It doesn't have clicks like a Harrells or similar but you can buy the micrometer stem if you choose. I'm too tight for that but I usually have it set for a new charge in about 4 or 5 dumps after weighing each. No biggie. You get used to it in a little while.
I'll post a couple of pics. It might take a minute but it'll hopefully make things more clear when you see what it looks like.
Oh, and I added led lighting to my press some time back. Love that!!
Sorry the pics arent better but I think they serve the purpose. The lighting is a cheap, cut to length light strip with adhesive backing. It plugs into a low voltage USB adapter.
For starters, they aren't all created equal. Some have a very good fit between the drum and the housing, while others..not so much. The couple that I've modified fit well here and that aspect didn't need further attention, making this an easy job. I'll try to post a couple of pics later. Hopefully between my post and the pics, you'll be able to make sense of both.
I don't agree with the ones saying a long, skinny powder chamber is the way to go. That kinda flies in the face of the whole idea of a vibrator, in the first place, when I assume the idea there is to settle the powder inside of the column better. Well, a short column will settle less. I hope we can agree on that much.
The mods I make are to the measure body and handle. I start by milling a flat on the handle side of the casr body..just enough to smooth up and uniform the surface. Then I drill and tap the handle for a nylon tipped set screw. You're probably already getting the idea now! I use the set screw to take out side play at the handle by putting the tip of the set screw at or near a light drag setting on the machined flat on the casr body.
Next..same principle but its the best part, in terms of improvement.
I machine the rough cast finish of the slot in the body, where the spindle protrudes from the drum, to be smoth and uniform as well. I then make a bushing for the threaded spindle that is a light friction fit, then lap to size by adding a little lapping compound and working the handle after reassembly of the unit.
The end result is that the drum goes from having about .050 sided to side clearance, to about .003 clearance and I can take out any angular variance with the set screw in the handle. This minimizes the effect of the needed clearance between the od of the drum and the id of the cast housing.
Ultimately, this results in a powder measure that's better than even the most expensive custom measures out there...with the powders I use. Powder still makes a big difference! Some just don't meter as well as others.
I use a fair amount of LT32, n133, 8208 and n120. With these powders i can routinely hold charge variances to well less than a tenth grain. There are other tricks that I don't incorporate, as I haven't seen the need for short range BR, like using a baffle and/or a weight on top of the powder column in the measure. I still use the factory powder stem, which brings up the down side to this measure vs the more expensive models. That being, adjusting the measure for different throw amounts. It doesn't have clicks like a Harrells or similar but you can buy the micrometer stem if you choose. I'm too tight for that but I usually have it set for a new charge in about 4 or 5 dumps after weighing each. No biggie. You get used to it in a little while.
I'll post a couple of pics. It might take a minute but it'll hopefully make things more clear when you see what it looks like.
Oh, and I added led lighting to my press some time back. Love that!!
Sorry the pics arent better but I think they serve the purpose. The lighting is a cheap, cut to length light strip with adhesive backing. It plugs into a low voltage USB adapter.
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Not sure I agree completely but that's the point of a baffle . It separates the large heavy load of powder into a two stage system with a large section then the baffle separates the powder into a smaller section less effected by the constant movement of the larger section continually compressing it self . By having the baffle separating the heavy section of powder from a much smaller section and restricting the amount of powder it lets in there . Results in a more consistent pressure/weight compressing the powder in the "throw" chamber .
As for the thinner deeper Column compressing more or less then a shallower fatter column . I think I'd need to put some thought to that but my first impressions would be they would be the same or the thinner column would have less variance . Reason being is the larger diameter column allows more powder from above to press down on the column powder then a thinner one would .
Example , you have a 1" diameter column to fill which is also the full amount/diameter of the funnel leading to the column . This means that 1" column is getting the full weight of the powder above it pushing down correct ?
Now half that column diameter and make it deeper to allow for the same volume . When you half that diameter there is now additional surface area on the rotor to help support that 1" funnel dump of powder leading to the rotor that holds that column . Meaning you've created a a flat surface area to support half the weight of the powder by making the column hole smaller then the funnel letting the powder in . Now if we were talking a liquid that may change this whole thing around but seeing of this is a compressible solid . That surface area support created by narrowing the column diameter should reduce the pressure in the thinner column .
Man I hope that make sense . I know what I mean but found it very hard to put on paper .
You did fine but some things are just easier to test than to calculate. I guess I failed to mention that I spent a fair amount of time testing both. I've spent some time on the phone with Boyd Allen too, who has spent a great deal of time testing the same stuff. We both came to the same conclusion. That might put your mind at ease, or not. Either way, just do the testing. This is easy stuff. Ultimately, it's more important to pull the handle the same way each time. So, technique is more important than the difference. Once you have that part worked out, you can start to see the difference, fwiw.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I have probably done more experiments with more different kinds of powder measures, different techniques, and different powders than anyone that I know of or have read about. It has been a long time hobby. All sorts of measures have passed through my hands, being bought and sold just to satisfy my curiosity, so when I tell you something, it comes from experience, and is not conjecture.
First of all, most Uniflows fail the drum fit test. Secondly actual experimentation, comparing different designs by using them, narrow deep powder cavities are not as good as those with more square aspect ratios. The shape and finish of the funnel leading into the measuring chamber has a significant effect that cannot be overcome, unless something is physically modified. I have found that the amount of powder under the baffle is important and for that reason, I prefer to remove baffles, experiment to find out what fill depth in the hopper gives the most consistent results, and mark the hopper with tape so that I can periodically add powder to stay in the desired range. The problem with tapping is doing it consistently when you are in a rush to get it done. Harder taps = heavier charges. Letting the drum rattle from side to side as you operate the measure degrades charge consistency. A little side tension on the operating handle helps prevent this. The rate that you close the cavity from full open has an effect. If you close to briskly, some powder will be slung out of the chamber, resulting in a slightly lighter charge. Pausing at the point where the cavity is fully open to the powder supply makes a difference. Most people do not have the patience to learn how to get the best results from a measure, which is why I recommend Chargemasters, unless your really enjoy fiddling with complex minutia. Different measures require different techniques, for best results and with the same measure, different powders often require different techniques. Two of the better measures for throwing directly into cases, that are available, are the Jones, and the most expensive Harrell, ,the Culver Classic. It has some differences from their other measures that contribute to more consistent results. For an out of production measure, the cavity and drum fit of the SAECO Micro-measure are top drawer.
First of all, most Uniflows fail the drum fit test. Secondly actual experimentation, comparing different designs by using them, narrow deep powder cavities are not as good as those with more square aspect ratios. The shape and finish of the funnel leading into the measuring chamber has a significant effect that cannot be overcome, unless something is physically modified. I have found that the amount of powder under the baffle is important and for that reason, I prefer to remove baffles, experiment to find out what fill depth in the hopper gives the most consistent results, and mark the hopper with tape so that I can periodically add powder to stay in the desired range. The problem with tapping is doing it consistently when you are in a rush to get it done. Harder taps = heavier charges. Letting the drum rattle from side to side as you operate the measure degrades charge consistency. A little side tension on the operating handle helps prevent this. The rate that you close the cavity from full open has an effect. If you close to briskly, some powder will be slung out of the chamber, resulting in a slightly lighter charge. Pausing at the point where the cavity is fully open to the powder supply makes a difference. Most people do not have the patience to learn how to get the best results from a measure, which is why I recommend Chargemasters, unless your really enjoy fiddling with complex minutia. Different measures require different techniques, for best results and with the same measure, different powders often require different techniques. Two of the better measures for throwing directly into cases, that are available, are the Jones, and the most expensive Harrell, ,the Culver Classic. It has some differences from their other measures that contribute to more consistent results. For an out of production measure, the cavity and drum fit of the SAECO Micro-measure are top drawer.
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SEM
Gold $$ Contributor
When I had an Hornady AP press, I suffered the same problem bought a Dillon and never looked back, That goofy mechanism NEVER worked right, I found some charges as low as half the charge but the one that ended my ownership was a 1 grain charge in a 357 mag round, of course I had rolled 500 before finding out
divingin
Gold $$ Contributor
Latest experiment was to move the baffle higher up in the hopper. It's now about 1/4 of the way up. A 20 charge test threw a high of 4.02, a low of 3.88, and an average of 3.94. I think I can live with that.
Unfortunately, I didn't test before moving the baffle. It's likely going to end up being either baffle position or the amount of powder in the hopper though.
Thanks for all the input!
Unfortunately, I didn't test before moving the baffle. It's likely going to end up being either baffle position or the amount of powder in the hopper though.
Thanks for all the input!
divingin
Gold $$ Contributor
Friction between the baffle and the hopper tube. It's kind of a slight squeeze-it-in fit. If yours doesn't, simply flatten the angle a bit.
I like the idea of the set screw to keep pressure on the drum. I'm gonna try a strip of metal under the handle then bent at an angle to keep pressure on the drum. I'll try and see if it works if not then I'll need to buy a small tap.
unless it is your own, best ask the wife's permission first
On the serious side go down to the hardware store and get a stack of heavy fender washers just small enough to fit inside the powder hopper. Get several ounces worth and fasten them to together with a long bolt or piece of all thread and a nut and use it as a weight. No batteries required
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I was reading forums looking for a vibratory device for my powder measure since I was tired of my aquarium pump rubber banded to my powder measure, and came across this thread. Since my initial search it looks like someone is now making and selling them. So I thought I would share it here incase anyone is looking for a solution to the massagers and aquarium pumps we have all been using. I bought one of the 2.5inch ones for my Dilon press and really like it. I am seeing increased consistency in my powder measurements like the aquarium pump but much more convenient with the switch and clamp. I thought the speed control was a gimmick but it's nice to adjust the speed so it runs quieter than my aquarium pump yet still has good vibration. If I am using a flake powder and think I need a stronger vibration I can turn up the speed but have not had to do that yet. Hope this helps anyone else looking for this. Sold on Amazon
Chuckwalla's Competition Shooting School - Reloading Powder Measure Vibrator, Powder Shaker
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