Very high seating force

[mao0720]

I just put together a 6.5x47L. Shot it for the first time earlier this week with pretty good accuracy. I was loading up some rounds tonight, to continue testing, with once fire FL sized brass sized with forster standard FL die and my seating force was in The 130lb range as measured on my K&M arbor press. This is incredibly high to me since my 308 loads usually seat in the 30-40 lb range. My question is, is this normal seating force or should I be worried about it? And, is there anything I can do about the seating force short of replacing my die? Thanks in advance for the help!
Mason

 

[Sniper338]

I just went through this with my 308... new 2 thou bigger bushing for my die fixed it.. yes it is excessive force... i agree thats why i had to do something different too...

If you dont habe a bushing die... id neck turn brass personall just a hair to clean it up a tad... then size it... ahould have a hair looser neck... thats what id do.. or at least try doing.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Mason,

A sinclair expander die and mandrel might help you out. I know of a few shooters that control their neck tension by running a .001 tighter than intended bushing and following that with a pass through the expander.

If you have bushing dies - yes, go up one or two sizes.

 

['Freak]

What’s the expander ball diameter? Was that brass tumbled in stainless steel media so leaving the inside of the necks stoopid seriously clean? If it’s a standard size expander ball and more typical stuff like a ~ 28° case mouth chamfer and/or a graphite based dry lube left on the inside of the neck still won’t fix it, then Forster offers oversize expander balls measuring .2430”, .2435”, and .2440”, intended to allow for “soft seating”.

 

[mao0720]

Well I don't have a bushing die so I can't change the tension that way. I thought about using an expander iron to open the necks up just a bit more. Thanks for the tip about the oversized forster expander balls I might have to pick one of those up. I just can't believe that factory dies are set up for this much neck tension.

 

[Chuckhunter]

Mason, you could also send the die back to Forster along with a few fired cases and tell them how much Nk. tension you want and they will hone out the die to give you that amount. If I remember correctly the price is fairly reasonable.

 

[gilmillan1]

How did you clean your brass???? This is important.

 

[amlevin]

Mason,

A sinclair expander die and mandrel might help you out. I know of a few shooters that control their neck tension by running a .001 tighter than intended bushing and following that with a pass through the expander.

Unless you are absolutely certain that every neck has been turned to EXACTLY the same thickness with No variations, this is a great way to make sure neck tensions are uniform.

The OP might want to make sure he's put a good chamfer on the case mouth as well. More than just a few "high seating force" problems have been solved with a VLD chamfer tool to help get the bullet past any burr or "constriction" at the case mouth.

 

[mao0720]

Cases were cleaned inside with a nylon brush and outside with balistol. I inside and outside chamfer all cases with a VLD tool.

 

[Boxcar77]

The Forster 6.5x47 F/L die is your problem. I stopped using it because it was undersizing the neck for almost .008 neck tension. What is the OD of your sized brass?

 

[Boxcar77]

Mr guffey What does any of this have to do with the OP's problem. Matt

Matt, measuring in tensions?

The OP never seated bullets the old fashion way, it has always been possible to measure bullet seating resistance/effort in pounds, never in tensions. There is no conversion for tensions to pounds. I have tension gages, all of my tension gages are calibrated to pounds. Then there is interference fit.

What does 130 pounds of effort have on the case when seating a bullet? Can a case be crushed or upset with 120 Pounds? Will the case support 130 pounds?

Instead of the K&M arbor press I would have suggested he invest his money into competition seating dies or old Herter Universal type seating dies. I want my bullets to center in the neck of the case. 130 pounds of effort? Experience should have told him something was seriously wrong.

F. Guffey

Good lord, sorry for sharing my experience. Should I put it a way your eminence can understand? My Forster full length die reduces the neck size by .008 far more than needed for optimal neck tension. Thus raising the force needed to seat the bullet.

I'll bow out now and refrain from answering only asking. As I must lack the intellect required to answer here.

 

[BoydAllen]

A couple of questions: What is the OD of your case necks after sizing, and what does it measure after bullets are seated? What does a sized neck measure if you do the sizing without the expander ball in place? Get back to us on this. If you insist on continuing with your one piece die, you need to have Forster lap out the neck to a dimension such that the OD of a neck sized without the expander is only a thousandth or so smaller than one where the expander is used. Getting back to your original question, yes your seating force seems excessive.

Frank,
It must be hard being the smartest reloader in the world. Why don't you try giving your advice without being so condescending toward others who try to help? Just a suggestion....
There is always going to be a variety of answers, on any question, and the quality of those answers will vary. That is perfectly normal and understandable on a forum such as this. In any case, the questioner will always have to do his own sorting as to which advice he chooses to follow.
Boyd

 

[mao0720]

My question is, is this normal seating force or should I be worried about it? And, is there anything I can do about the seating force short of replacing my die? Thanks in advance for the help!

Seating force, in the scheme of things reloading, seating force is but a whisper of force or the weight of the handle of a Herter press. And still I do not know what effect the indicated 130 pounds of pressure had on the case when seating bullets.

The seating die does not have case body support, I have tested cases to determine how brittle they were. I have folded them like bellows/accordions. I have measured case length from the shoulder to the case head and from the case mouth to the case head to determine the effect of pulling the expander plug through the neck. That took a little time but I did not find the case getting longer because the plug/expander was pulled through the neck.

@BoydAllen. I will do some measuring of brass before and after sizing later today, and I will get back to you.
Thanks everyone for your continued help.

Then there is that part about shooting F-class, I suggest you find help on another forum, I can not believe these members on this forum put you into a dead run with reloading. I seat bullets with the weight of an old Herter press handle. I am not the fan of crimping but crimping requires less effort/force.

I would suggest you determine the outside diameter of a loaded round then fire and measure the outside diameter of the case neck. I also suggest you add a word or group of words to your vocabulary. Interference fit. You need to know the difference in the inside diameter of the neck and the outside diameter of the bullet.

I know, members use tension, tension for everything. You have a gage that seats and reads in pounds of effort/force. If there was a conversion for tension to pounds I would have it. I can seat with force/effort with a bath room scale, I don't but I could.

And I suggest centering the bullet with the case neck.

F. Guffey

You apparently dont quite understand what I am working with here so I will fill you in. I use a standard bench mounted press to size my cases, always have. I used to use it for seating bullets as well, until I got a K&M arbor press that has the seating force gauge with which I use wilson seating dies. My 308 loads for my FTR rifle take about 30-40lb to seat a bullet fully. With my new 6.5x47 in the FIRST Batch of ammo that I have reloaded for it it was taking ~130lb of force to seat a bullet fully. That obviously wasnt rights so I pulled the rounds and asked my question on here. I think I got some good ideas from people: Make sure the necks are chamfered, brush the necks with a dry lubricant, Use an expander mandrel, send the die in to Forster and have them hone it to my specs. Lots of good ideas. I think most off the shelf factory dies are made to size the necks pretty tight compared to what is achievable with custom dies or with bushing dies. Ive had a similar issue with a set of lee 243 dies and rcbs 308 dies. Plain jane COTS dies are not set up well for the discriminating reloader or shooter. Let me give a piece of advice as well. The next time you want to respond to a persons question on this board dont bash them and every other person who has responded to their question with a decent option, and then never provide a viable solution yourself. We have a great community here I respect the men and women on this board. I suggest that you do the same.

 

[Dos XX]

Above all on this forum, we must not deny anyone the right to pontificate, knowledge be damned.

 

[amlevin]

To the OP---

Just a thought but have you tried annealing a few fired cases, prepping as you have the first cases, then looked at the seating pressure? I agree with all the suggestions about getting the die modified for less sizing but a hard case can also run up seating pressures. Certainly does with mine and frequent annealing mitigates the issue if I choose not to get a bushing die or have the one-piece modified.

 

[mao0720]

Brass was freshly annealed before sizing.

 

['Freak]

If you don’t want to turn necks, or if you’re dealing with largish SAAMI spec chamber dimensions so it’d be best to not turn necks any smaller, then by having the die honed to the point that the expander ball has to expand the neck only a thousandth or so, you’d still be reducing work hardening of the necks, and since there’d be less neck expansion there should also be less spring back so less neck ‘tension’. And, you’d still be pushing any neck wall thickness inconsistencies more so to the outside wall so leaving the inside, where the projectile has to live, trued and more concentric to the case body. Then if the standard size expander ball still isn’t fat enuf, there’s still the option of swapping in one of the three oversize expander balls.

 

[mao0720]

A couple of questions: What is the OD of your case necks after sizing, and what does it measure after bullets are seated? What does a sized neck measure if you do the sizing without the expander ball in place? Get back to us on this. If you insist on continuing with your one piece die, you need to have Forster lap out the neck to a dimension such that the OD of a neck sized without the expander is only a thousandth or so smaller than one where the expander is used. Getting back to your original question, yes your seating force seems excessive.

Frank,
It must be hard being the smartest reloader in the world. Why don't you try giving your advice without being so condescending toward others who try to help? Just a suggestion....
There is always going to be a variety of answers, on any question, and the quality of those answers will vary. That is perfectly normal and understandable on a forum such as this. In any case, the questioner will always have to do his own sorting as to which advice he chooses to follow.
Boyd

So, a sized case neck measures .288. A neck with a seated bullet measures .290. I borrowed an expander mandrel from a friend and ran the necks over it. This produced a sized neck diameter of .289 and a seating force of only about 40lb which is perfect. I am going to have forster hone the die out for me so that it only sizes the necks down to .289.

 

[BoydAllen]

Actually, doing a small amount of expanding after or during sizing (.001 or so) may be beneficial.

 

[fguffey]

Frank,
It must be hard being the smartest reloader in the world. Why don't you try giving your advice without being so condescending toward others who try to help? Just a suggestion....
There is always going to be a variety of answers, on any question, and the quality of those answers will vary. That is perfectly normal and understandable on a forum such as this. In any case, the questioner will always have to do his own sorting as to which advice he chooses to follow.
Boyd

[/So, a sized case neck measures .288. A neck with a seated bullet measures .290. I borrowed an expander mandrel from a friend and ran the necks over it. This produced a sized neck diameter of .289 and a seating force of only about 40lb which is perfect. I am going to have Forster hone the die out for me so that it only sizes the necks down to .289. quote]

Wait, think about it. If your necks are not the same thickness the inside diameter will not be the came unless you are pulling a sizer plug/ball through the neck after sizing. Neck sizer ball/plugs are available in different sizes. Then there are those than grind to size.

F. Guffey