Very happy so far, “10 round” load development results.

[JFrank]

I showed that video to my rifle one day"
It still shot the same..
I'm a what's on paper guy

One thing you'll notice on the video is they never show you their rock solid load printing on the target, who knows how much vertical or horizontal they end up with. Tactical load development for I'm assuming torso size targets ?

I always appreciate someone taking their time and resources to test and report their results

 

[memilanuk]

One thing you'll notice on the video is they never show you their rock solid load printing on the target, who knows how much vertical or horizontal they end up with. Tactical load development for I'm assuming torso size targets ?

Actually... no.

While there are some full-sized IPSC targets or other 'large'ish targets in some courses of fire, any 'slop' is offset by drastically reduced time limits and/or (usually 'and') non standard firing positions. Their loads don't have to be 'BR' accurate for 5 shots, or 'F-class' consistent for 20+... but if you think their targets don't require a fair degree of accuracy, I'd invite you to go actually try one out before making more comments like that.

About the 10-shot method in general:

I think I either said (or implied) this before: this method is a short cut - for *experienced* shooter/reloaders. If you have a known good load in a given caliber, and you replace the barrel (for the second or third time this year alone)... do you think you *really* need to do a full-blown load workup? Probably not... you know what you need to see, you know where the sweet spot, the perfect 'node', the honey hole, etc. is. This method is a short-cut for people like that to get their competition gun up and running as quickly as possible while conserving as much competitive barrel life. I've done my own version of it when spinning up (yet another) .308 barrel for FTR - after three or four barrels sacrificed on the altar of Berger 200H/200.20X bullets, I have a pretty decent idea where I want to be velocity-wise. I may not be doing it in 10 shots (or 12), but I can find it a whole lot quicker than when I first started with that combination. And if I have to change component lots for some reason... I can just about re-tune the load using just the chrono - I know where it needs to be. I'll still confirm it on paper, of course, but thats different than doing complete workup on paper from start to finish every single time. Some people dig that stuff, and more power to them.

Unfortunately, a whole bunch of new-ish shooters and loaders around the internet have latched onto this method, seeking to shortcut and avoid actually learning traditional load development methodology. Most of them would be (in my opinion) better served by going back to either a basic OCW test, or something like the 100yd Load Development thread by @Erik Cortina . I know nobody wants to hear that, but that doesn't make it not true.

 

[Sraw]

Actually... no.

While there are some full-sized IPSC targets or other 'large'ish targets in some courses of fire, any 'slop' is offset by drastically reduced time limits and/or (usually 'and') non standard firing positions. Their loads don't have to be 'BR' accurate for 5 shots, or 'F-class' consistent for 20+... but if you think their targets don't require a fair degree of accuracy, I'd invite you to go actually try one out before making more comments like that.

About the 10-shot method in general:

I think I either said (or implied) this before: this method is a short cut - for *experienced* shooter/reloaders. If you have a known good load in a given caliber, and you replace the barrel (for the second or third time this year alone)... do you think you *really* need to do a full-blown load workup? Probably not... you know what you need to see, you know where the sweet spot, the perfect 'node', the honey hole, etc. is. This method is a short-cut for people like that to get their competition gun up and running as quickly as possible while conserving as much competitive barrel life. I've done my own version of it when spinning up (yet another) .308 barrel for FTR - after three or four barrels sacrificed on the altar of Berger 200H/200.20X bullets, I have a pretty decent idea where I want to be velocity-wise. I may not be doing it in 10 shots (or 12), but I can find it a whole lot quicker than when I first started with that combination. And if I have to change component lots for some reason... I can just about re-tune the load using just the chrono - I know where it needs to be. I'll still confirm it on paper, of course, but thats different than doing complete workup on paper from start to finish every single time. Some people dig that stuff, and more power to them.

Unfortunately, a whole bunch of new-ish shooters and loaders around the internet have latched onto this method, seeking to shortcut and avoid actually learning traditional load development methodology. Most of them would be (in my opinion) better served by going back to either a basic OCW test, or something like the 100yd Load Development thread by @Erik Cortina . I know nobody wants to hear that, but that doesn't make it not true.

Ok that makes a little more sense. So if I understand you correctly I’d be using the 10 rounds to locate which load the new barrel pushes a specific bullet, which is known to shoot well at a general velocity, at that velocity, and then develop from there?

 

[JFrank]

Actually... no.

While there are some full-sized IPSC targets or other 'large'ish targets in some courses of fire, any 'slop' is offset by drastically reduced time limits and/or (usually 'and') non standard firing positions. Their loads don't have to be 'BR' accurate for 5 shots, or 'F-class' consistent for 20+... but if you think their targets don't require a fair degree of accuracy, I'd invite you to go actually try one out before making more comments like that.

About the 10-shot method in general:

I think I either said (or implied) this before: this method is a short cut - for *experienced* shooter/reloaders. If you have a known good load in a given caliber, and you replace the barrel (for the second or third time this year alone)... do you think you *really* need to do a full-blown load workup? Probably not... you know what you need to see, you know where the sweet spot, the perfect 'node', the honey hole, etc. is. This method is a short-cut for people like that to get their competition gun up and running as quickly as possible while conserving as much competitive barrel life. I've done my own version of it when spinning up (yet another) .308 barrel for FTR - after three or four barrels sacrificed on the altar of Berger 200H/200.20X bullets, I have a pretty decent idea where I want to be velocity-wise. I may not be doing it in 10 shots (or 12), but I can find it a whole lot quicker than when I first started with that combination. And if I have to change component lots for some reason... I can just about re-tune the load using just the chrono - I know where it needs to be. I'll still confirm it on paper, of course, but thats different than doing complete workup on paper from start to finish every single time. Some people dig that stuff, and more power to them.

Unfortunately, a whole bunch of new-ish shooters and loaders around the internet have latched onto this method, seeking to shortcut and avoid actually learning traditional load development methodology. Most of them would be (in my opinion) better served by going back to either a basic OCW test, or something like the 100yd Load Development thread by @Erik Cortina . I know nobody wants to hear that, but that doesn't make it not true.

I'm not looking to pick an argument with you or anyone else, I assume a tactical torso size target that's what I said.
Your words are a fair degree of accuracy, ok great.
I try not to discount any discipline I also appreciate those that take their time and resources to test and report publish or post.
I don't see where my comments are out of line at all.

Tactical shooting is on steel targets where a hit is a hit.

F class I have not experienced therefore I will not comment .

Benchrest shooting is a completely different animal.
I really do not have a problem developing a load.

Best Regards
J

 

[Sheldon N]

Jumping into the conversation late, but I agree with the prior comments that you want more than just velocity data when doing load development. I like to follow a combination of OCW and Satterlee method, looking for both consistent POI on target as well as velocity flat spot, any indicators of good/bad SD, and also group size as a whole. I'll shoot OCW style 3 shot groups using a chrono that doesn't touch the barrel, and can get all the info I want out of 15-18 shots. I'll do a final test with seating depth, if needed. If you don't have a free floating chrono, I like loading 2 extra rounds and using those to get velocity info and shoot the OCW without anything on the barrel.

Here's what a typical target and velocity data looks like, from my last 6BRA barrel. You can see that the velocity info (average of 3 shots) did not show a clear "flat spot" but the target showed a nice POI consistency and good groups in the 31.4 to 31.6 range. If I'd tried to get just velocity info I wouldn't have been able to see the load nearly as easily.

 

[JFrank]

Jumping into the conversation late, but I agree with the prior comments that you want more than just velocity data when doing load development. I like to follow a combination of OCW and Satterlee method, looking for both consistent POI on target as well as velocity flat spot, any indicators of good/bad SD, and also group size as a whole. I'll shoot OCW style 3 shot groups using a chrono that doesn't touch the barrel, and can get all the info I want out of 15-18 shots. I'll do a final test with seating depth, if needed. If you don't have a free floating chrono, I like loading 2 extra rounds and using those to get velocity info and shoot the OCW without anything on the barrel.

Here's what a typical target and velocity data looks like, from my last 6BRA barrel. You can see that the velocity info (average of 3 shots) did not show a clear "flat spot" but the target showed a nice POI consistency and good groups in the 31.4 to 31.6 range. If I'd tried to get just velocity info I wouldn't have been able to see the load nearly as easily.

View attachment 1073148 View attachment 1073149

Nice work
Thank you for posting that.
I consider that a solid load

 

[CharlieNC]

Jumping into the conversation late, but I agree with the prior comments that you want more than just velocity data when doing load development. I like to follow a combination of OCW and Satterlee method, looking for both consistent POI on target as well as velocity flat spot, any indicators of good/bad SD, and also group size as a whole. I'll shoot OCW style 3 shot groups using a chrono that doesn't touch the barrel, and can get all the info I want out of 15-18 shots. I'll do a final test with seating depth, if needed. If you don't have a free floating chrono, I like loading 2 extra rounds and using those to get velocity info and shoot the OCW without anything on the barrel.

Here's what a typical target and velocity data looks like, from my last 6BRA barrel. You can see that the velocity info (average of 3 shots) did not show a clear "flat spot" but the target showed a nice POI consistency and good groups in the 31.4 to 31.6 range. If I'd tried to get just velocity info I wouldn't have been able to see the load nearly as easily.

View attachment 1073148 View attachment 1073149

Looking at the individual data points on the velocity plot, it is apparant that you could pick one of those which would then appear to give a "flat spot" and be misled. It is probably surprising to most that a single shot when doing a ladder test on a target is usually more definitive and consistent than a corresponding single chrono test when it comes to defining a node. Not to mention that the barrel vibrations which lead to a target node have nothing to do with velocity as a mechanism. Velocity variability can reflect a problem, but not a node.

 

[JFrank]

Are you referring to this type of 5 shot ladder test^^

 

[JFrank]

The people who have and regularly use wind flags are shaking their heads about now.

There is always wind perhaps undetectable to some people but it's there.
Regardless , ladder test can be performed and nodes can be identified even with light wind at moderate distances.
A simple ribbon on a stick will help

 

[Sheldon N]

Looking at the individual data points on the velocity plot, it is apparant that you could pick one of those which would then appear to give a "flat spot" and be misled.

Very true. And this is on a cartridge that has SD's in the low single digits. It would only be more difficult and prone to error on a cartridge with an SD of 10 or 15.

 

[Sraw]

Jumping into the conversation late, but I agree with the prior comments that you want more than just velocity data when doing load development. I like to follow a combination of OCW and Satterlee method, looking for both consistent POI on target as well as velocity flat spot, any indicators of good/bad SD, and also group size as a whole. I'll shoot OCW style 3 shot groups using a chrono that doesn't touch the barrel, and can get all the info I want out of 15-18 shots. I'll do a final test with seating depth, if needed. If you don't have a free floating chrono, I like loading 2 extra rounds and using those to get velocity info and shoot the OCW without anything on the barrel.

Here's what a typical target and velocity data looks like, from my last 6BRA barrel. You can see that the velocity info (average of 3 shots) did not show a clear "flat spot" but the target showed a nice POI consistency and good groups in the 31.4 to 31.6 range. If I'd tried to get just velocity info I wouldn't have been able to see the load nearly as easily.

View attachment 1073148 View attachment 1073149

I actually like this a lot. I think this is where I should have started and will start for this next test.

The only difference, and I’m sure many will hate this, is after a few tests I have found there is no detectable difference in how the barrel shoots with and without the chrono hanging off it. Maybe each of my tests were flukes but in my quest for the most efficient load development process I plan to shoot the initial test with the chrono, identify the velocity flat spot if available, the vertical poi, and lastly the group size.

With this data I plan (hope) to narrow it down to one or two specific loads that I will shoot 5 to confirm velocity, and five without chrono to confirm grouping.

View attachment 1073160 Are you referring to this type of 5 shot ladder test^^

In this picture am I correct in 30.1 being the load you would pursue due to the elevation?

 

[Bc'z]

I actually like this a lot. I think this is where I should have started and will start for this next test.

The only difference, and I’m sure many will hate this, is after a few tests I have found there is no detectable difference in how the barrel shoots with and without the chrono hanging off it. Maybe each of my tests were flukes but in my quest for the most efficient load development process I plan to shoot the initial test with the chrono, identify the velocity flat spot if available, the vertical poi, and lastly the group size.

With this data I plan (hope) to narrow it down to one or two specific loads that I will shoot 5 to confirm velocity, and five without chrono to confirm grouping.



In this picture am I correct in 30.1 being the load you would pursue due to the the elevation?

Yup

 

[JFrank]

I actually like this a lot. I think this is where I should have started and will start for this next test.

The only difference, and I’m sure many will hate this, is after a few tests I have found there is no detectable difference in how the barrel shoots with and without the chrono hanging off it. Maybe each of my tests were flukes but in my quest for the most efficient load development process I plan to shoot the initial test with the chrono, identify the velocity flat spot if available, the vertical poi, and lastly the group size.

With this data I plan (hope) to narrow it down to one or two specific loads that I will shoot 5 to confirm velocity, and five without chrono to confirm grouping.



In this picture am I correct in 30.1 being the load you would pursue due to the the elevation?

100% Correct!

 

[Sheldon N]

is after a few tests I have found there is no detectable difference in how the barrel shoots with and without the chrono hanging off it.

That can be true, however I have had barrels where the groups go to absolute crap with the chrono attached. Since a lot of what you are testing with OCW is all about barrel whip, I've felt better testing without.

 

[Sraw]

That can be true, however I have had barrels where the groups go to absolute crap with the chrono attached. Since a lot of what you are testing with OCW is all about barrel whip, I've felt better testing without.

I don’t know if I said it in this thread or not, I’m feeling too lazy to go back and look, but I generally try to find three or four loads for every rifle. One match accuracy load, one hunting load, and one cheap load for range fun or what not Sometimes I also try to find a varmint load.

The whole reason I started this new endeavor is that I’ve spent considerable amount of money in finding for loads for my rifles and I’m looking for a more efficient process.

With some of those loads costing $.80 a piece, those extra shots add up quick.

It’s all part of the game, A game I enjoy playing, but if I can streamline the process I’m all for it.

This isn’t a dedicated match, hunting, or varmint rifle. If it were and I only wanted one load, an extra 20 rounds for the load really wouldn’t matter.

 

[fredo]

I've noticed POI shift with Magneto on/off, but it seems that accuracy potential realized with it attached translates favorably to with it, off...

Just take your time between shots to make sure the Magneto is in the SAME position on the barrel, and the strap hasn't loosened/shifted during previous recoil. Barrel contour makes a difference here, as the more tapered tubes will wanna let the strap 'slide' loose...

You've gotten great info here, you're in the right track!!! All the best...

 

[Sraw]

Thank you all for your advice so far, I have used a lot of it and put it together for another load development method.

I started a new thread with that info titled “new load development combo method.” Check it out and let me know what you think.

 

[bgblue1978]

I have seen quite a few people mention not using the magneto speed for load testing because it affects barrel timing.

Is there anything wrong with using it for load development and just planning to use it all the time? As long as it's consistent why not just leave it on all the time?

 

[memilanuk]

Sooner or later you're going to have to take it off - whether for cleaning, fitting the weapon in the case/safe, etc.

Do you really think something tightened down by hand, with a strap, is going to be perfectly repeatable from one time to the next?

Even if the answer is "close enough", what happens when you bump into something?

 

[Ned Ludd]

In addition to Monte's observations, it is important to note that the MagnetoSpeed can change group size/shape by at least two different mechanisms. First, it acts like a tuner, simply because it's an "adjustable" weight hanging off the end of the barrel. As Monte noted, it's going to be very difficult to position it exactly the same every time and have it remain in that position. Second, muzzle blast from the sensor deck can cause the POI of groups/shots to be as much as 1.0-1.5 MOA higher on the target than with it off. The same mechanism will also cause shots to go right/left is the MagnetoSpeed is turned slightly in one direction or the other; again- very difficult to control and maintain with the attachment strap.

Having used a MagnetoSpeed for several years, my experience is that it can change group size/shape as well as POI on the target. Sometimes having it attached makes groups larger, sometimes smaller, sometimes not much of a change. The point being that you really can't predict in advance which effect you might see with various cartridges and loads. If there is a pattern to it, it's not been obvious to me. For that reason, I always load 5 extra rounds for velocity measurements, then remove the unit and shoot 5 rounds for grouping.