I am just now about to return to handloading after a hiatus of years, this time for a rifle chambered in 35 Whelen; and I am hoping that there is a seasoned veteran or two who can help me with this question. I used to neck size only (for a 30-06) using a Lee collet neck-sizing die. I really liked that die. I think that it succeeds in producing very concentric necks. However, this time around, after a bit of study, I am convinced that I should full-length size, in order to bump the shoulders on the fired brass back a couple of thousandths. Here is where I could use advice. What I would like to do, this time around, for the 35 Whelen, is to get a full-length sizing die, remove the expander button from it (in order to avoid potential problems with runout caused by that expander), and then full length size the brass with it. (I would get a body die for this part, but I can't find any body die for the 35 Whelen.) Then, having done that, I would use a Lee collet neck-sizing die to properly size the case neck. (The Lee collet die sizes the neck by squeezing it against a mandrel). What I am hoping to accomplish is to avoid using an expander button in the full-length die. (I know that this results in the neck being worked twice -- first in the full length die, and then when the Lee collet neck-sizing die swages the neck against the mandrel.) Has anyone done this with a Lee collet neck-sizing die? Do you think this technique will produce more concentric ammo?
Use of the Lee collet neck sizing die with a full length sizing die
- Thread starter paxamericana
- Start date
I use the technique you described and I get runout very close to .001.
I full length size (and decap) with a Wilson bushing die. (There is no expander button for the Wilson die.) Then I neck size using a Lee Collet die. On some of my dies, I ordered a mandrel that was .003 smaller than the bullet diameter. Lee Collet dies are normally shipped with a mandrel that is .002 smaller than the bullet diameter.
I full length size (and decap) with a Wilson bushing die. (There is no expander button for the Wilson die.) Then I neck size using a Lee Collet die. On some of my dies, I ordered a mandrel that was .003 smaller than the bullet diameter. Lee Collet dies are normally shipped with a mandrel that is .002 smaller than the bullet diameter.
Thank you, guys. Your replies were very helpful.
I agree with the above comments, Your ideas are sound.
Florida Wally
Gold $$ Contributor
I tried this loading 308 Winchester with a Redding 308 FLS die and the Lee collet die. The problem was the FLS sized the neck too small and without the button, I had a difficult time running the case up the Lee collet die mandrel. It was very tight. I didn’t lube the inside of the neck, but that may have helped.
Straightshooter1
Gold $$ Contributor
The method can certainly work. Just there might be an issue with the LCD's mandrel sliding into a neck that's been substantially reduced. So, just be sure the neck is reduce just enough for the mandrel to do its business well.
If the LCD is a newer one, it's my current understanding that they changed the design a little to where the die will flair the mouth slightly with the idea of making it easier to seat bullets. I've got old LCD's that don't do that.
While the LCD will tend to leave ridges where the spaces in the collet squeeze together, that can be addressed by simply rotating the case after the first squeeze and do it again to offset where those spaces come together. If you don't want those ridges at all, simply use a expander mandrel. . .which is what I do after FL sizing with a non bushing FL sizing die that's been reamed to not reduce the neck so much (producing very low TIR).
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Murray Brook
Silver $$ Contributor
I use the Redding body die/Lee collet die on my 6br and PPC rifles. Loads very straight ammo for little cost. The only problem doing it the way you describe is the Collet die was designed to size down where you will opening up the neck with the Lee mandrel. This could pop off the die cap and strip the threads. I've seen that happen before. If you can't locate a proper body die or make one I would go with a standard die expander removed and then use a mandrel die to open the neck as mentioned above. JMO
Sounds like your making it way to complicated. It's short range hunting rifle. Just buy a Redding FL bushing type-s die and be done with it.
Webster: I might do that, except that apparently they don't make full length bushing dies for the 35 Whelen.
This is true. I've ran into this myself. The lee die simply acts as an expander mandrel and can be hard to push the brass onto it. I went to just and expander mandrel die after the FLS. Works well for me in those cases where I cant find a body die to go with the LCD
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I wish I could use the Redding body die, or a Redding bushing die without the bushing, for the first stage of sizing the brass, but Redding does not seem to offer either of those types of dies in 35 Whelen.
Using the expander system in a standard full length sizing die isn’t the end of the world. RCBS makes one for your caliber.
We use a standard die in most of our hunting rifles and they run great and shoot small.
Just saying.
We use a standard die in most of our hunting rifles and they run great and shoot small.
Just saying.
FYI - In 2019 Lee Precision modified their collet neck-sizing die so a small portion of the neck protrudes through the end of the collet-sizing portion. This change allows the portion of the neck that protrudes above the collet to remain in its fire-formed condition. This provides a natural flare to the case neck allowing easy and concentric seating of bullets. Purportedly, this is important when seating cast or low-drag coated bullets. This was not well-received by many customers. To minimize or eliminate the flare on a cartridge case a .040" shim should be used above the shell-holder.
Lee Precision - The decapping pin on the expander rod (not decapping mandrel) of die is .062", which is standard flash hole diameter of most ammunition cases made in U.S. and foreign countries.Undersized flash hole may be enlarged with commercial flash hole uniformers or use 1/16 (1.6mm) drill. Uniform flash holes are helpful to uniform ignition. WARNING – Measured size of a 2022 decapping mandrel pin was .078”, necessitating the pin to be filed down for Lapua.
With a 6.5 CM, I tried comparing using the Redding Body die with the LP Collet N/S die versus the Redding Neck Sizer Die with Titanium .290" Bushing. I didn't find any difference. Please note, I ain't that great a shooter, average at best (in perfect conditions).
Lee Precision - The decapping pin on the expander rod (not decapping mandrel) of die is .062", which is standard flash hole diameter of most ammunition cases made in U.S. and foreign countries.
With a 6.5 CM, I tried comparing using the Redding Body die with the LP Collet N/S die versus the Redding Neck Sizer Die with Titanium .290" Bushing. I didn't find any difference. Please note, I ain't that great a shooter, average at best (in perfect conditions).
"FYI - In 2019 Lee Precision modified their collet neck-sizing die so a small portion of the neck protrudes through the end of the collet-sizing portion. This change allows the portion of the neck that protrudes above the collet to remain in its fire-formed condition. This provides a natural flare to the case neck allowing easy and concentric seating of bullets. Purportedly, this is important when seating cast or low-drag coated bullets. This was not well-received by many customers. To minimize or eliminate the flare on a cartridge case a .040" shim should be used above the shell-holder."
Where would this shim go?? Wouldn't above the shell holder push the case further into the die??
Where would this shim go?? Wouldn't above the shell holder push the case further into the die??
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
No, the brass will sit on the base and the shim on the shell holder keeps that case from going further up into the neck of the die, thus sizing to the end.
What Lee forgets is that many folks will first size the case neck and then trim it because some actions dent the case mouth on ejection. It was an ill conceived idea and instead of allowing for both versions, they doubled down on the mistake. You can't do a good job of trim or chamfer on dented necks, and I will not try it on a flared neck either.
OP, most times a full length sizing die will size the diameter down farther than the mandrel on the Lee collet die. That means that once you FL size in that regular die, you will be sizing down much farther and without the expander opening it back up, the Lee Mandrel would need lube to open it back up and then there wouldn't be any benefit over say a standard mandrel operation.
Like above, if you wanted to try this system it would be best to try a Redding Body die in combination with the Lee Collet Die on the neck.
In fact, you can then also ask Lee for several modified mandrels at different diameters to have control over neck tension, or if you are handy you can just buy extra ones and reduce them yourself.
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