I agree. Opinions do vary. Hunting comes in a variety of forms. Glassing, spot and stalk, stand hunting or drives. Everyone has a different type that fits there style or interest. I love shooting at all ranges and do consider myself an ethical hunter/shooter. I've luckily never wounded an animal from a long range shot gone bad but I've wounded a few deer or lost some by archery gear. It's all part of the game. I'm also not trying to be confrontational as we're all on the same team here. Just giving the benefit of doubt to a fellow shooter that I don't have any knowledge of but been in his shoes before. No offense but do enjoy hearing everyone's opinion and experience.
Use Enough Gun!
- Thread starter effendude
- Start date
It amazes me how these discussions always bring in everything from white-tailed deer to ground hogs. If you have never shot an Oryx, you don't understand how tough they are. They put elk to shame. Elk are not that tough at all. Oryx have thick hides, deep girth and African survival tenacity.
They should not be shot at 1000 yards. If you want to play that BS, go shoot wimpier game. That guy needs his ass kicked for doing what he did. Just because he can put a bullet where he wants on paper at 1000 yards, does not qualify him to shoot extremely tough animals with a light bullet.
This is the difference between a hunter and a shooter.
They should not be shot at 1000 yards. If you want to play that BS, go shoot wimpier game. That guy needs his ass kicked for doing what he did. Just because he can put a bullet where he wants on paper at 1000 yards, does not qualify him to shoot extremely tough animals with a light bullet.
This is the difference between a hunter and a shooter.
I've taken game at 1000+ yards that I've worked for harder, hunted more hours and been more satisfied with my hunt quality and ethical killing of that animal than I have animals I've taken at 2 yards with a bow.
A lot of guys think it's about range but it's all about the hunt, the difference now is that small window when I'm going to kill an animal it's done with precision and the absolute best that can be done, there is no doubt that a clean kill will be delivered, no wondering if I hit it, no looking around for it, no dispatching wounded game.
The range is the by product of doing the work to deliver a precision cold bore shot for me now, though the idea of range usually brings new guys to the range and that is what first motivates them I work very hard with anyone to move them from the idea long range hunting to precision hunting and knowing with certainty what you as a hunter and your gear is capable of doing and stay in those conditions to deliver quality kills and making taking that hunt to the next level.
I've just added more skills to my hunting, still doing the hunting and in fact I have to hunt harder and farther now that I have so much more criteria for that one perfect shot!!!
A lot of guys think it's about range but it's all about the hunt, the difference now is that small window when I'm going to kill an animal it's done with precision and the absolute best that can be done, there is no doubt that a clean kill will be delivered, no wondering if I hit it, no looking around for it, no dispatching wounded game.
The range is the by product of doing the work to deliver a precision cold bore shot for me now, though the idea of range usually brings new guys to the range and that is what first motivates them I work very hard with anyone to move them from the idea long range hunting to precision hunting and knowing with certainty what you as a hunter and your gear is capable of doing and stay in those conditions to deliver quality kills and making taking that hunt to the next level.
I've just added more skills to my hunting, still doing the hunting and in fact I have to hunt harder and farther now that I have so much more criteria for that one perfect shot!!!
When discussing taking game at distance, consider having these controls in place:
1. The most accurate rifle on the planet, capable of first round <0.25moa hits under any condition.
2. The most obsessively analytical reloader on the planet, capable of building <single digit ES ammo, at will.
3. The most disciplined shooter on the planet, capable of shooting the above rifle to that <0.25moa, at will.
Once you get to the extended 600- 1,000yd+ range, there are 2 factors that simply CANNOT be controlled.
1. An animate target, capable of moving at any time.
2. The WIND.
Both of the above are at the mercy of one thing...BULLET TIME OF FLIGHT
NO matter what anyone says, or does, the above 3 controls simply cannot act upon the "un-controllable"
Once that bullet leaves the barrel, all bets are OFF.
If the animal decides to move during the second or two that the bullet is on the way, that bullet ain't gonna hit where it was sent to. None of the above 3 mean squat, anymore...
And, if the wind switches along that distance/time, its gonna blow that bullet off where it was sent to. Again, 1-3 above just went down the toilet...
The further the distance, the longer the time of flight.
The longer the time of flight, the higher the chance of those two "un-controllables" rearing their ugly head(s), resulting in a mess...
Justify LR "hunting" however you want, shooters. Whatever makes ya sleep better at night. I shoot & hunting at beyond traditional range & police my own self. So, will not push my ethics upon others, just hope everyone would do the same...
Stating for the record, there's no controlling the un-controllable. When you attempt to shoot a critter "way out there" don't delude yourselves into thinking otherwise. Sure, you can hedge your bets by getting as close to the perfect #1-3 above, but bullet time of flight can still make a mess outta things. No matter what you say, or what you do...
Good shootin'!
1. The most accurate rifle on the planet, capable of first round <0.25moa hits under any condition.
2. The most obsessively analytical reloader on the planet, capable of building <single digit ES ammo, at will.
3. The most disciplined shooter on the planet, capable of shooting the above rifle to that <0.25moa, at will.
Once you get to the extended 600- 1,000yd+ range, there are 2 factors that simply CANNOT be controlled.
1. An animate target, capable of moving at any time.
2. The WIND.
Both of the above are at the mercy of one thing...BULLET TIME OF FLIGHT
NO matter what anyone says, or does, the above 3 controls simply cannot act upon the "un-controllable"
Once that bullet leaves the barrel, all bets are OFF.
If the animal decides to move during the second or two that the bullet is on the way, that bullet ain't gonna hit where it was sent to. None of the above 3 mean squat, anymore...
And, if the wind switches along that distance/time, its gonna blow that bullet off where it was sent to. Again, 1-3 above just went down the toilet...
The further the distance, the longer the time of flight.
The longer the time of flight, the higher the chance of those two "un-controllables" rearing their ugly head(s), resulting in a mess...
Justify LR "hunting" however you want, shooters. Whatever makes ya sleep better at night. I shoot & hunting at beyond traditional range & police my own self. So, will not push my ethics upon others, just hope everyone would do the same...
Stating for the record, there's no controlling the un-controllable. When you attempt to shoot a critter "way out there" don't delude yourselves into thinking otherwise. Sure, you can hedge your bets by getting as close to the perfect #1-3 above, but bullet time of flight can still make a mess outta things. No matter what you say, or what you do...
Good shootin'!
That's why we're humans. We shoot those ranges with NO wind or almost non existent. We shoot animals at rest not alert. Come on. To sight in a new firearm we don't wait until the windiest day of the year just for challenge. Back to responsibility... Again. The shooter has to use a little bit of common sense. I won't even bother with 600-1000 yard shots on ground hogs with winds that will leave me wondering where that round went. Obviously we're in some pretty controversial territory. We all know it boils down to common sense more than range as long as we're shooting the proper equipment. Myself as well as many readers of this subject have shot many deer or elk at 700-1000 yards without issues so to say it's unethical or wrong is just an opinion.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
I agree with Bingreen. After building rifles for a few hard core archery only guys who have since went out a taken game at long range, they get it. The game is under no stress, they arent running, guys arent shooting a buck they just jumped, and the rest of the herd usually just walks off calmly. You have time to make the shot properly. The elk I have taken over 600 yards have no idea I was there, died fast and the rest of the herd was not stressed. I cant say that about elk I have shot under 100 yards.
I like the 4 hour rule. If you don't see the game go down wate 4 hours before try to recover it . I personally never lost any but I sure have friends loose game . Larry
The only animal I would consider "at rest" would be a bedded animal.
If they're on their feet, they're entirely capable of moving. So again, don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise. You have no control over that animal's movements. Your call is a guess, not a given.
Don't think you are, but if you're shooting bedded critters, then that's a whole nutha mess to address. At least they'd be "at rest" though...
As for hunting only when there's no wind, I'll just LOL! I live in the east & have hunted all over the country, including out west in the mountains & on the plains. In the mountains, there are these pesky things called "thermals" that can & will affect bullet flight, same as "wind". And there's never, not thermals. Similarly, I haven't been out on a prairie yet, where there was "no wind". Even back east here, there is NEVER a day that I'm not holding wind when shooting 600-1000+ yards. Literally, never...
Don't know what 'vacuum scenario' are you guys shooting in, but I know enough to know its a rarity, when it happens.
Same rules apply to archery, BTW. Time of flight is relevant to arrows, too.
And yes, I'm also a bowhunter & subject myself to the same critical observations.
Not judging, just keepin' it real. If you guys' reality involves regularly encountering an atmospheric 'vacuum scenario' with frozen stiff animals to shoot at, then consider me jealous! The animals I hunt are mobile, and the weather I shoot in is anything but a non-issue...
Take care
If they're on their feet, they're entirely capable of moving. So again, don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise. You have no control over that animal's movements. Your call is a guess, not a given.
Don't think you are, but if you're shooting bedded critters, then that's a whole nutha mess to address. At least they'd be "at rest" though...
As for hunting only when there's no wind, I'll just LOL! I live in the east & have hunted all over the country, including out west in the mountains & on the plains. In the mountains, there are these pesky things called "thermals" that can & will affect bullet flight, same as "wind". And there's never, not thermals. Similarly, I haven't been out on a prairie yet, where there was "no wind". Even back east here, there is NEVER a day that I'm not holding wind when shooting 600-1000+ yards. Literally, never...
Don't know what 'vacuum scenario' are you guys shooting in, but I know enough to know its a rarity, when it happens.
Same rules apply to archery, BTW. Time of flight is relevant to arrows, too.
And yes, I'm also a bowhunter & subject myself to the same critical observations.
Not judging, just keepin' it real. If you guys' reality involves regularly encountering an atmospheric 'vacuum scenario' with frozen stiff animals to shoot at, then consider me jealous! The animals I hunt are mobile, and the weather I shoot in is anything but a non-issue...
Take care
Fredo for someone who is not judging you sure are doing a ton of it. You also need to get out more. I have been out many times where the wind just was not there. Maybe waking up earlier and be in position before it is light.
Even at distance one needs to practice good fundamentals of hunting.
Even at distance one needs to practice good fundamentals of hunting.
hogpatrol
Gold $$ Contributor
Hunt groundhogs on the east coast when there's a Bermuda High sitting on top of you. You'll feel like you're in a vacuum AND a steam bath.
It's just conversation. I don't think anybody really takes it serious enough to actually get upset with others opinions. I certainly don't. Entertaining let's say. I have buddies that hound me for taking shots beyond "their" comfortable range. That tends to be under 250 yards so I get it. Plus there are people that just love to give there opinion on a subject that they are pretty educated on. Lots of people justify things in there mind and I'm one of them. I truly can justify long shots in certain conditions as many of you guys can. I do know my limitations tho. Back to " Use Enough Gun". Thats as important as environmental conditions. Most of the time it's about 600 yards on big game. There's that exception where 1000 yards happens. No apologies, no regrets.
I was referring to traditional fall hunting seasons & the taking of game animals at distance. When big game seasons roll around in October-December, there are precious few "Bermuda Highs" to savor.
Anyhoo, varmints & summer time shooting were not what this thread pertained to. Don't think there's much discussion about "wounding" a friggin' woodchuck at 1,000 yds. With the rifles used for that pursuit, you're either gonna kill it, or miss it. More importantly, there are no laws regarding game retrieval to adhere to for varmints. Nor, do the 'ethical' ramifications equate, much as I detest using that word. So don't occlude the main topic with varmint shooting, it's irrelevant to the taking of a game animal...
I shoot enough all summer in central NY to know that a "0" wind call, even during the doldrums of Summer is a rarity. If you're nearby CNY, send me a PM & let's hook up. Bring some guns & we'll get together. I have access to (private property) 1,300yd capable farm, so we can see how many "0" wind calls actually occur in otherwise "ideal" conditions. Steel is already hung, so c'mon! I'll even video tape you shooting and will happily post the vids here in this thread. AND...I will humbly 'eat crow' if you demonstrate the ability to make first round hits at the distances being discussed, "Bermuda High" or not.
As for the judging, really I'm not. It'd be hypocritical if I did, since I shoot & take game at beyond 'traditional' distance. Just sharing a perspective that I feel warrants being added to the discussion.
Take care!
Look, you obviously have a hard time with pulling the trigger on "Game" animals at extended ranges. That's OK. Many people don't and succeed regularly at it. That's great too. I Guess we can agree to disagree. I'll continue harvesting animals in "less than ideal" conditions and you can keep waiting for that day that's guaranteed not to show up. How's that ? I'd take you up on your offer in hopes that you have a tasty crow recipe but you'd likely not show up at my range anyway. I guess we'll have to continue on our individual paths to our own success. Good luck and good hunting.
Obviously, you can't see that I'm sharing a reality based opinion, not an emotional one.
Could fill the next several pages of this thread with dead critter pics, but what good would that do? Trust me, Sir, I've taken my fair share of game at "beyond traditional" range, via precision rifle. And I've learned some hard lessons, along the way, too. Last season, I only killed deer with a bow (and smokepole) and let over 30 whitetails from 20-850yds walk past, beyond the rifle's muzzle. That's not from "having a hard time pulling the trigger", that's from having killed enough critters from 5-800yds to not have to prove it's possible, anymore...
Back to topic:
If you can't comprehend, or appreciate the fact that there's a very tangible aspect of LR "hunting" that simply cannot be controlled, then my time here was wasted. On you, at least...
We all make our own decisions and have to deal with the rewards/consequences of them. That's all the info I've been trying to pass along, the whole time. That, and the fact that I don't buy, for a minute, that LR hunters only shoot under vacuum-like, ideal conditions. That's a load of crap. In a perfect world, maybe, but that ain't the one I live & hunt in.
That said, its up to us to weigh the risk/reward factors before we engage. Which is whay I wished to make perfectly clear the point about not foolin' one's self into believing that "everything is under control" when time of flight enters the picture.
Once you've taken enough game at distance, you'll appreciate how the decision to shoot actually becomes more ponderous one. Experience is the greatest teacher...
Offer's on the table & extended to you, too. If you're ever near CNY, holla!
Take care
Could fill the next several pages of this thread with dead critter pics, but what good would that do? Trust me, Sir, I've taken my fair share of game at "beyond traditional" range, via precision rifle. And I've learned some hard lessons, along the way, too. Last season, I only killed deer with a bow (and smokepole) and let over 30 whitetails from 20-850yds walk past, beyond the rifle's muzzle. That's not from "having a hard time pulling the trigger", that's from having killed enough critters from 5-800yds to not have to prove it's possible, anymore...
Back to topic:
If you can't comprehend, or appreciate the fact that there's a very tangible aspect of LR "hunting" that simply cannot be controlled, then my time here was wasted. On you, at least...
We all make our own decisions and have to deal with the rewards/consequences of them. That's all the info I've been trying to pass along, the whole time. That, and the fact that I don't buy, for a minute, that LR hunters only shoot under vacuum-like, ideal conditions. That's a load of crap. In a perfect world, maybe, but that ain't the one I live & hunt in.
That said, its up to us to weigh the risk/reward factors before we engage. Which is whay I wished to make perfectly clear the point about not foolin' one's self into believing that "everything is under control" when time of flight enters the picture.
Once you've taken enough game at distance, you'll appreciate how the decision to shoot actually becomes more ponderous one. Experience is the greatest teacher...
Offer's on the table & extended to you, too. If you're ever near CNY, holla!
Take care
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