Use Enough Gun!
- Thread starter effendude
- Start date
Not enough energy!
Well I just shot 5 rounds into 1.5" plywood using 40grn 1080fps 22lr and they all went completely through. Range is 30yds so it's probably going slower than 1080fps. I will see what else these can go through then I will shoot my 300BLK using 110grn all copper to see how much this will go through. Of course all going at 1000fps.
I'm surprised almost no one is mentioning hunting @ 1000 yards? Aside from enough energy to properly kill, what about accuracy for shot placement? Now I don't travel in the world of custom rifles and custom reloads, but it would seem that if you're trying to hit a kill zone...about the size of maybe a large dinner plate, that any amount of wind would drift the bullet and cause a wound, not a kill. And we're also talking about 'in the field'..not some benchrest rifle with benchrest conditions. And from what little I know, would humidity and barometric pressure have some factor at these distances? And the wind you measure where you're shooting from may not be the same wind over a bullet path that long.
Maybe I'm older and out of touch with these sort of things, but hunting @ 1000 yards? I don't have those skills/equipment, so it's either get closer or don't pull the trigger.
effendude
Gold $$ Contributor
I don't know that it was a low powder charge, but that could be one of the explanations. If a low charge was responsible, at 1K, the shot would have to be poorly executed for that theory to work, but still "lucky" enough to hit the vitals. We will never know that part. I do know that an oryx has very tough hide. The hide at the top of the neck under the mane is over 1" thick when caping the animals out.
I find it entirely plausible that a light for caliber bullet ran out of energy and was stopped by a large, flexible rib after penetrating some thick hide. We can accurately place bullets at extreme distances, but there is no guarantee what it will do when it arrives!
Scott
Ok, I'm done playing for the day. 
So I've added 1" more to the plywood and shot the 22lr again. 5 shots and only 1 went completely through. So that is 2.5" total. I then went and shot the 300BLK using 110grn all copper. It is right at 950fps. Anyone want to guess if it went through 2.5" of plywood or not? Oh and I also used 110 vmax and anyone want to guess what happened with the vmax? Very interesting result.
So I've added 1" more to the plywood and shot the 22lr again. 5 shots and only 1 went completely through. So that is 2.5" total. I then went and shot the 300BLK using 110grn all copper. It is right at 950fps. Anyone want to guess if it went through 2.5" of plywood or not? Oh and I also used 110 vmax and anyone want to guess what happened with the vmax? Very interesting result.
Riesel
Gold $$ Contributor
Well here's a campfire fish, er hunting story that might be with us for a long time. I'm a hunter, not big time such as this, but in my opinion just about everything was ill prepared for this hunting trip. Bullet X Load X Distance divided by game animal hunted = a negative. Believe I'm done with this thread.
If the bullet was an all copper bullet that changes a lot, copper does not have the momentum to keep going as lead does. I do shoot long range when hunting but only with a bigger gun and everything needs to be right. Ohio: there are rifle systems that will do very good at long range. When I was going after my Colorado moose my outfitter was not liking that I shoot the Berger Hunting VLD, so for close range I loaded some Nosler partition bullets. I shot my bull in the last 15 min of shooting time at 200 yds. I hit it with a Berger on the first shot and the Nosler on the second. My bull was on his feet and wobbling after the first so I hit him with the Nosler and he went down, both bullets were good shoulder hits and BOTH bases were under the hide on the far side about 2" apart. One of my hunting partner's shot his Wyoming bull moose at 512 yds and it went straight to the ground with a 7mm using a Berger VLD, his guide said: that was the first time he had watch a bull moose drop DIT. It was snowing and the bull was less than 30 yds from the river. The only time I will use copper bullets is when it is required.
Unfortunate he did not chose a bullet that will function at that range on game, has absolutely NOTHING to do with engery but impact velocity for bullet function and penetration. It's people like this that make for guys getting down on people who can effectively harvest game at that kind of range, if one of my buddies did something this stupid I kick him in the sack, he should be embarrassed and get his gear together properly or get into a range that its functioning correctly !! I've seen a number of elk killed easily and cleanly at that range from a 6.5x284 but using the proper bullet for the intended range and game!!!
The 6.5x284's I've built will put a 140 Berger on an elk at 1000 yards with an impact of 1900 fps which will open the bullet nice and it will exit when shot through the slats, dead game every time though only have experience with them on elk an deer no exotics. For those who think energy has anything to do at this range it hits with 1122 ft lbs potential energy.
Running the numbers for a low load on a 100 TTSX looks horrible, even running them at my elevation same as above load it looks like a 1226 fps impact which should have thrown flags up all over the place. Again energy would have been in the 340 ish! Why would a guide even let him shoot?
Running the numbers for a low load on a 100 TTSX looks horrible, even running them at my elevation same as above load it looks like a 1226 fps impact which should have thrown flags up all over the place. Again energy would have been in the 340 ish! Why would a guide even let him shoot?
You're the one who stated "NOTHING to do with energy". So which is it in your world
I agree. Shooting game at that distance is not an endeavor to be taken lightly...
My 6.5SAUM has a bigger boiler room, and I shoot 130VLDs @ 3200 out of it. But at 1K, even that larger bullet, with a higher b.c. & MV, doesn't really "pound" the steel. When I switch up & shoot my 140 JLK load (3070 fps), its easy to tell that it hits the steel a bit harder than the 130 @ 3200. On paper, its a ~150ft/lbs. energy difference (~950 for the 140, vs. ~800 for the 130). Just sayin' @ 1K, enough to tangibly differentiate the impact.
Nothing scientific to those comparison, of course. But after ya shoot steel for a while, and see how different bullet/cartridges impact at increased distance, ya kinda get an inkling as to how said bullet/cartridge might suffice for killin' stuff...
That said, I wonder how that dude's 100grTTSX/6/5-284 would ring steel? Bettin' it'd be on the weak soundin' side!
Sooo....
I ran a 100gr TTSX with w MV of 3200 thru my ballistic app. That speed should be doable from a 6.5-284?
Anyhoo... the retained energy @ 1,000 yards is ONLY ~280 FT/LBS.
I sincerely doubt it'd be easy to find anyone who'd recommend that as adequate for taking a game animal???
Retired sniper, or not, if that dude did his ballistic homework, he'd seen how woefully inadequate his bullet/cartridge was at that distance...
On top of that, and with regard to the anatomy of the animal. It behooves the hunter to know his quarry!
Having no experience with African plains game, its all too easy for someone ignorant (like me) to correlate a plains animal to something more familiar. Like a whitetail, muley, elk, etc. I've skinned & butchered elk, and their hide is plenty thick enough!
If that oryx hide is even tougher, it becomes easy to deduce how that bullet did what it did, with such minimal retained energy at that distance.
And, all the more easy to put the blame onto the hunter for not factoring the animal's anatomical prowess into the equation...
Still, a crazy result & noteworthy opportunity to talk about this kinda stuff!
shooting animals at that range with is unethical. regardless of your abilities or your equipment.
a friend used to work with long range hunting guys on a tv show. he said they lost a lot of animals, but it is always edited out.
a friend used to work with long range hunting guys on a tv show. he said they lost a lot of animals, but it is always edited out.
You're the one who stated "NOTHING to do with energy". So which is it in your world
I put the energy figure in there for the reality impaired! At close range you can get some lethal effects from energy release and you might use that to compare but energy numbers won't show you a single thing about how a bullet will open or how far it will go through game. Momentum and bullets functional characteristics at a given impact velocity will give you actual insite into the proposed shot.
I can hit game all day long with big energy at range and just poke little holes through them with bullets that are not open or I can hit them with a bullet that expanded but has far less energy and I'll kill the heck out of them with nice wound channels.
Ok, I'm done playing for the day.
So I've added 1" more to the plywood and shot the 22lr again. 5 shots and only 1 went completely through. So that is 2.5" total. I then went and shot the 300BLK using 110grn all copper. It is right at 950fps. Anyone want to guess if it went through 2.5" of plywood or not? Oh and I also used 110 vmax and anyone want to guess what happened with the vmax? Very interesting result.
Guys, the 110grn copper only penetrated 1.75" of plywood. Now, what I don't understand is the 110grn is almost 3x the weight of the 22lr thus giving almost 3x the energy yet the 22lr went completely through. So in my opinion the bullet construction is very important. Also, the 110grn VMAX went completely through with ease. So I would never use copper for long range hunting.
Gemsbok/Oryx are VERY tough. I only have been around the harvest of three, but ALL three impressed me with their ability to take brutal injuries yet still run off, two on only three legs. One shot with 300 gr Swift A-Frames from a .375 H&H. The other two .300 H&H with 180 gr A-Frame Swifts.
I very much dislike long range sniping on game animals. GET CLOSER.
Few years back we had a blowhard at the local club with his .338 RUM and his desire to shoot an elk at
" A thousand yds or better". One afternoon he was at the steel range and he couldn't get a hit at 675 yds. After several shots he was flinching so badly it was sad to watch.
It's about momentum vs frontal area not energy. All copper works well but you have to chose wisely, I've shot a good number of elk in the 8-900 yard range with a 6.5 SS pushing a 140 Cutting edge bullet at 3200 ish, clean cold bore kills but the CEB opens very easy compared to a Barnes at range and I used a bullet that had more mass behind it, all bullets exited with the exception of a cow elk at spitting distance I shot at the base of the skull in the neck. Copper bullets react differently and you have to adjust, it's all apart of knowing your effective range.
Right
hogpatrol
Gold $$ Contributor
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