Unusual Sharps rifle question.....

[slingworks]

The powder chamber in a Sharps is rarely filled by paper cartridges, it's larger than you think and will take a pretty large charge to fill it. If you don't fill it and then ram a bullet down from the muzzle and into the chamber cockeyed you're really going to have a problem. I'm sure your county LE are no dummies and it's pretty well known that once a breechloader always a breechloader. Like on AR15's, once you register a lower as a pistol lower it will always be a pistol lower regardless of what you put on top of it.

That's exactly what I was worried about, the powder chamber vs loading from the muzzle. I probably should have hit more on that thought/worry from the beginning. What if I were to try a different powder such as FG and maybe be able to fill the chamber a bit more? Recipe for failure? Wonder if roundballs would work better at close range? (Twist?).

I don't know why you guys are so hung up on the "legalities" of a breechloader. It's not like I'm trying to export or import the rifle. The law just says "Muzzle Loading" and that's it. My neighbor hunted for years with an 870 w aftermarket blackpowder barrel. I've hunted with 700UML rifles, etc. Both are modern arms that require a 4473 and are considered breechloaders by federal law. A "converted" sharps would be no different so long as I can only load it in the field with a ramrod.

I'm away from home until tomorrow so I haven't been able to try anything yet. I feel like I've gotten some good advice/imput here already though.

 

[dellet]

I don't know why you guys are so hung up on the "legalities" of a breechloader. It's not like I'm trying to export or import the rifle. The law just says "Muzzle Loading" and that's it. My neighbor hunted for years with an 870 w aftermarket blackpowder barrel. I've hunted with 700UML rifles, etc. Both are modern arms that require a 4473 and are considered breechloaders by federal law. A "converted" sharps would be no different so long as I can only load it in the field with a ramrod.

Ohio law and other states are somewhat confusing. They allow “muzzleloaders” to be charged from the breech, the Nitrofire system allowed by many states caused a change in definitions.

It’s basically a cartridge case, filled with powder that you insert a primer in. It’s loaded from the breech end.

Stated that have allowed worded the laws so that the rifle must be configured so that a bullet can only be loaded from the muzzle. They no longer care about the breech end. There is also generally wording that the “chamber can not accommodate a modern case”. The barrel that accommodate the nitro fire have a stop inside the barrel that the projectile rests on loading from the muzzle that prevent it from being loaded from the breech.

It would be interesting to just ask Ohio Fish and Game for a ruling on the paper cartridge. The sticky point would be if they required the breech block to be welded shut, most of the inline rifle the breech plug can be removed, so securing the lever so it is not field serviceable may actually work.

Legal stuff aside, the biggest problem with loading loose powder would be it finding it’s way down into the mechanism and being ignited with the charge.

You won’t be the first or last to do it.

Seat a bullet from the rear so that about half the base is engraved into the rifling, then make a ramrod with a stop so the bullet is place there every time. Then work out your charge weight.

Most of the muzzleLoader forums will have threads on the process of loading loose powder into paper cartridge rifles. Like I said, your not the first.

Just don’t risk losing hunting privileges over it.

 

[FNSafari]

It must only be loadable from the muzzle. An apple is an apple a pear a pear. My wife is a retired game warden. They know the law, trying to fit a square peg in a round hole is a waste of time. Get ahold of your local game warden or call your fish and wildlife agency. The law should define a muzzleloader. Have you bothered to read the law?

 

[Bill K]

Ask the warden what he thought or would do, then proceed from there. Since you wonder or want to know what he would do, simply ask him, instead of everyone else.

 

[slingworks]

It must only be loadable from the muzzle. An apple is an apple a pear a pear. My wife is a retired game warden. They know the law, trying to fit a square peg in a round hole is a waste of time. Get ahold of your local game warden or call your fish and wildlife agency. The law should define a muzzleloader. Have you bothered to read the law?

Actually quite in depth. I pressed the State a few years ago in an unrelated question concerning combination guns. I received a letter from on high that I consider relevant here. The State's position in reply, was that a firearm's action or chamber disabled by a mechanical means requiring tools to return it to it's normal state, it's considered disabled or deactivated for (hunting) purposes.

At that time I had machined a slim insert to fit down the bore of a combination gun, that required a spanner wrench to remove. Chamber end had a brass head similar to a cartridge, the other was a very thin brass disk that clamped against the muzzle. 4mm brass rod between.

When I was a boy my father had a good friend that was an active "Game Warden." His tactic, straight from his lips, was to write as many citations as he could on any stop, knowing well that most wouldn't stand up in court. People just pay up to avoid a court date. They're either afraid to go to court, or to miss work.

 

[El Matador]

There's a significant issue here that I haven't seen discussed. What will you do for ignition? Putting a primed case into the chamber will certainly work but then you won't be able to take it out for transportation as you would a standard muzzleloader primer or cap. If the breech is fastened shut with a screw you won't be able to reload without converting it back to a breech loader, swapping out the brass case, and reinstalling your screw. Seems like way too much of a hassle.

The latest and greatest muzzleloader ignition systems use a regular old 700 action and a special breech plug. Like the Arrowhead or Hankins systems. The breech plug and bolt face interact to accept a sort of modified case head with a large rifle primer. I'm sure you could convert your Sharps to this style of ignition but it would be hard to change it back.

 

[FNSafari]

Actually quite in depth. I pressed the State a few years ago in an unrelated question concerning combination guns. I received a letter from on high that I consider relevant here. The State's position in reply, was that a firearm's action or chamber disabled by a mechanical means requiring tools to return it to it's normal state, it's considered disabled or deactivated for (hunting) purposes.

At that time I had machined a slim insert to fit down the bore of a combination gun, that required a spanner wrench to remove. Chamber end had a brass head similar to a cartridge, the other was a very thin brass disk that clamped against the muzzle. 4mm brass rod between.

When I was a boy my father had a good friend that was an active "Game Warden." His tactic, straight from his lips, was to write as many citations as he could on any stop, knowing well that most wouldn't stand up in court. People just pay up to avoid a court date. They're either afraid to go to court, or to miss work.

Well in my wife's 31 year career in wildlife law enforcement she didn't do that and observed that most of her colleagues did not either. Doing something like issuing a summons for something a person has not done and exposing yourself to under-oath testimony if they request a trial is something she or her colleagues never did. I spent 22 years as a reserve deputy sheriff and never ever saw that tactic used by officers.

Getting back to your sharps issue, every definition of muzzleloader I've read at state levels is loose powder or pellets down the tube followed by a bullet rammed home, then a separate primer on the hammer end. What is so hard to understand about that? Are you trolling or really serious?

 

[dellet]

Getting back to your sharps issue, every definition of muzzleloader I've read at state levels is loose powder or pellets down the tube followed by a bullet rammed home, then a separate primer on the hammer end. What is so hard to understand about that? Are you trolling or really serious?

This is not exactly correct any more. I posted about this above and it’s blurring the lines of cartridge vs muzzle loader definitions in my opinion.

FireStick

There’s never been a muzzleloading system like FireStick. Learn all the details that set FireStick apart and give hunters the most convenient, safe and consistent performance.

www.federalpremium.com

The NitroFire® Changes Muzzleloading!

Traditions® Firearms has changed muzzleloading forever. In collaboration with Federal Premium® and Hodgdon® Powder, the NitroFire® and Firestick™ make muzzleloading safer, more reliable, and more consistent. The NitroFire® is the first and best muzzleloader on the market that uses this...

www.traditionsfirearms.com

also note the changes in Ohio definitions.
Current

a primitive weapon that shoots a projectile or projectiles loaded exclusively from the muzzle and that is incapable of firing modern-day ammunition.

previous

1501:31-1-02 Definition of terms

(ZZZ) "Muzzleloading rifle" and "muzzleloading shotgun" means a primitive weapon that is shoots a projectile or projectiles loaded exclusively from the muzzle, and has a permanent breech plug or when said breech plug is removed renders the weapon inoperable, or and that is incapable of firing modern-day ammunition.

This change happened about the time the fire stick was introduced.





The only reason the Model 59 paper cartridge Sharps fails that definition is that a bullet can be loaded from the breech. Pin the lever, and problem solved. Does it need to be a permanent modification is the only question.

I don’t think it’s right, but people who really want to protect the muzzle loading season need to step up or soon they will be gone. It was intended as a primitive season, and is rapidly losing that argument.

 

[slingworks]

Ohio law and other states are somewhat confusing. They allow “muzzleloaders” to be charged from the breech, the Nitrofire system allowed by many states caused a change in definitions.

It’s basically a cartridge case, filled with powder that you insert a primer in. It’s loaded from the breech end.

Stated that have allowed worded the laws so that the rifle must be configured so that a bullet can only be loaded from the muzzle. They no longer care about the breech end. There is also generally wording that the “chamber can not accommodate a modern case”. The barrel that accommodate the nitro fire have a stop inside the barrel that the projectile rests on loading from the muzzle that prevent it from being loaded from the breech.

It would be interesting to just ask Ohio Fish and Game for a ruling on the paper cartridge. The sticky point would be if they required the breech block to be welded shut, most of the inline rifle the breech plug can be removed, so securing the lever so it is not field serviceable may actually work.

Legal stuff aside, the biggest problem with loading loose powder would be it finding it’s way down into the mechanism and being ignited with the charge.

You won’t be the first or last to do it.

Seat a bullet from the rear so that about half the base is engraved into the rifling, then make a ramrod with a stop so the bullet is place there every time. Then work out your charge weight.

Most of the muzzleLoader forums will have threads on the process of loading loose powder into paper cartridge rifles. Like I said, your not the first.

Just don’t risk losing hunting privileges over it.

W

There's a significant issue here that I haven't seen discussed. What will you do for ignition? Putting a primed case into the chamber will certainly work but then you won't be able to take it out for transportation as you would a standard muzzleloader primer or cap. If the breech is fastened shut with a screw you won't be able to reload without converting it back to a breech loader, swapping out the brass case, and reinstalling your screw. Seems like way too much of a hassle.

The latest and greatest muzzleloader ignition systems use a regular old 700 action and a special breech plug. Like the Arrowhead or Hankins systems. The breech plug and bolt face interact to accept a sort of modified case head with a large rifle primer. I'm sure you could convert your Sharps to this style of ignition but it would be hard to change it back.

I'll put a cap on the nipple. I have a blackpowder sharps that uses musket caps allong with a paper cartridge of sorts that holds the powder and bullet together. No brass or modern cartridge case like the later 1874's your probably thinking of.

 

[El Matador]

W

I'll put a cap on the nipple. I have a blackpowder sharps that uses musket caps allong with a paper cartridge of sorts that holds the powder and bullet together. No brass or modern cartridge case like the later 1874's your probably thinking of.

Ahh, yes I was assuming you had an 1874. I would like to retract my previous comment

 

[slingworks]

This is not exactly correct any more. I posted about this above and it’s blurring the lines of cartridge vs muzzle loader definitions in my opinion.

FireStick

There’s never been a muzzleloading system like FireStick. Learn all the details that set FireStick apart and give hunters the most convenient, safe and consistent performance.

www.federalpremium.com

The NitroFire® Changes Muzzleloading!

Traditions® Firearms has changed muzzleloading forever. In collaboration with Federal Premium® and Hodgdon® Powder, the NitroFire® and Firestick™ make muzzleloading safer, more reliable, and more consistent. The NitroFire® is the first and best muzzleloader on the market that uses this...

www.traditionsfirearms.com

also note the changes in Ohio definitions.
Current


previous


This change happened about the time the fire stick was introduced.

View attachment 1496648



The only reason the Model 59 paper cartridge Sharps fails that definition is that a bullet can be loaded from the breech. Pin the lever, and problem solved. Does it need to be a permanent modification is the only question.

I don’t think it’s right, but people who really want to protect the muzzle loading season need to step up or soon they will be gone. It was intended as a primitive season, and is rapidly losing that argumen

Ahh, yes I was assuming you had an 1874. I would like to retract my previous comment

No retractions allowed-lol. I'm happy to see you posted all the same.
I sure would like an 1874 carbine though.....Maybe next year?

 

[FNSafari]

This is not exactly correct any more. I posted about this above and it’s blurring the lines of cartridge vs muzzle loader definitions in my opinion.

FireStick

There’s never been a muzzleloading system like FireStick. Learn all the details that set FireStick apart and give hunters the most convenient, safe and consistent performance.

www.federalpremium.com

The NitroFire® Changes Muzzleloading!

Traditions® Firearms has changed muzzleloading forever. In collaboration with Federal Premium® and Hodgdon® Powder, the NitroFire® and Firestick™ make muzzleloading safer, more reliable, and more consistent. The NitroFire® is the first and best muzzleloader on the market that uses this...

www.traditionsfirearms.com

also note the changes in Ohio definitions.
Current


previous


This change happened about the time the fire stick was introduced.

View attachment 1496648



The only reason the Model 59 paper cartridge Sharps fails that definition is that a bullet can be loaded from the breech. Pin the lever, and problem solved. Does it need to be a permanent modification is the only question.

I don’t think it’s right, but people who really want to protect the muzzle loading season need to step up or soon they will be gone. It was intended as a primitive season, and is rapidly losing that argument.

Well it’s just your opinion as you said. Good luck with your quest.

 

[Timberyote]

Ok,
I am curious if the Sharps Black Powder rifles/carbines can be loaded from the muzzle with any reasonable success?
Has anyone ever done so and willing to comment?

Yes, a strange line of thought for a breech loading paper cartridge BP gun, I know...

I have a Pedersoli Carbine and I'd like to use it in Ohio's musket/BP season this year. I find it handy.

I believe i could drill a small hole in trigger guard and tang, and tap for something like a 10-32 screw to hold the trigger guard "closed". Either that or something internal to block the lock from sliding. Thinking maybe to appease the state as far as making it a "muzzle loader".

Where I hesitate a bit is the chamber of the sharps. Assuming I can "ram" down a bullet on a powder charge, will I have an issue?

Why not talk to your local tree cop.

 

[slingworks]

I may not be musket hunting this season after all, plenty of deer hanging here now! None fell to the sharps though.

The plan I came up with for a mild conversion was to use a small cap screw to hold the lever down, and to machine/fit a thin wall brass bushing in the chamber. The pressed in bushing would reduce the charge diameter a bit, allowing the charge to fill the chamber end forward enough to get the bullet out past the chamber area. Seems like it might work?

 

[slingworks]

Why not talk to your local tree cop.

Tree cop? I'm not a logger

 

[Timberyote]

Tree cop? I'm not a logger

DEC.