Universal Bench Varmint Target Rifle--An Idea.

[Forum Boss]

Here's an idea I've bounced off some forum members. By and large the response was "good idea but it will never fly."

Here's the concept. Create a strict one-design class rifle capable of peak performance from 100 to 600 yards. Tightly control the componentry to keep costs down and competition tight. I'm thinking 6BR standard chambering, .272" neck, but perhaps there is a better caliber. The idea would be to have a one-design class that could run in short-range BR, varmint/groundhog matches, club shoots and F-Class. Component prices are based on a 50-rifle production run. Total weight 16.5 lbs to meet the LG class under Williamsport rules.

Specs:
Stiller Predator Action or Equivalent $650
One-source 26" 8-twist barrel $300
One-Design Low-Profile stock with V-block $350
Match Trigger,new Kelbly?) $100
Leupold 6-20x40 EFR Scope $500
Burris SigZee Rings $30

Total: $1930, or $1400 before Optics/Rings

Add cost of chambering/bbl fitting


Re the components. I selected the EFR Scope because it has a simple front-focus objective, with target knobs, and could be obtained for very close to $500.00. The 40mm objective is plenty bright for target use, and the 1" diameter allows use of less expensive ring sets. Yes, for less money, one could run a Weaver or Sightron 36x, but I think the 6-20 will be more versatile.

Stock: There are many outstanding stocks available. As to stock--I would like to see them all be identical, but I'm not sure what the best choice would be. It should be a design suitable for both free-recoil and holding styles, and should be able to do double-duty on the varmint fields.

The idea behind the .272" neck is that this class could shoot factory ammo. I've talked with Lapua about the possibility of a Lapua Cup where competitors would be provided factory ammo to shoot. Another possibility is to shoot factory 77gr 6BR ammo,10 shots) for record at 100 yards, then permit handloads for the longer distances. I think that would make the 100-yard game a little more user-friendly,nobody would be tempted to try gear-busting loads, and there would be no incentive to load at the range*), it would encourage those who are new to reloading, and it would only add about $10 to each match.

Course of fire: Shoot 10 rounds at 100, 10 rounds at 200, 10 rounds at 300, and 10 rounds at 500 or 600, depending on what the range permits. I'm not sure what would be better, shooting two 5-round targets at each distance or one 10-rounder.

A 28" barrel would provide a bit more performance, but 26" should be adequate, and the guns might shoot a bit better at short range. Again, if everyone has the same gear, the 26" bbl should not be a disadvantage.

Switch-Action: It would be cool if a V-block system could be worked out that would allow one to switch in a rimfire barreled action, and use the same stock in rimfire competition. If a V-block system was used, it could reduce the cost of gunsmithing. The EFR scope could be used in 50m rimfire competition--just switch it from one action to another.

I know the weight and some other features do not comply with current 100/200 rules, but frankly, I think it's better to allow more weight and stocks with less drop than are currently allowed in short-range BR. I think it would be a mistake to just build a long-barrel PPC style glue-in rifle. I want something that is more stable with a weight that can be achieved without exotic components.

Note: if pre-fit barrels would be used, that could reduce the system cost even further. But I'm not sure the industry is really ready to deliver pre-fits with the level of precision shooters demand. I'd like to be proved wrong however.

What do you guys think? The idea is to have one gun, and you can shoot it in basically any bench, varmint or F-Class match from 100 yards on out. Pop-in a rimfire action to shoot rimfire matches. Nobody has to buy a $1200 Nightforce or $1200 BAT action to have an edge. Everybody runs the same barrel contour, same action, same chamber, so you could simply send a barrel blank to your favorite smith and he could chamber it based on an approved blue-print.

If you think standardization is too restrictive, consider this. At the recent Cactus Classic 100/200 match, of the top 40 competitors,20 each in LV/HV), all but one shot 6PPC. And fully 80% of the top 20 LV shooters shot the same brand,Krieger) barrels. How cool would it be to call your favorite smith and just say "I need a new Universal Bench Rifle barrel" and he would know exactly how to chamber it, based on regulated blueprints.

- - -
* I know loading at the range is de rigueur at PPC matches, but I think this is something better avoided. Most guys don't have the set-up needed--it's a lot more stuff to haul around. It requires additional benches and facilities not found at many ranges. You can get more shooting done in a day, and run more shooters in more relays if people pre-load all their ammo.

 

[Forum Boss]

Regarding Stocks, I came across a design this weekend which really impressed me. With a couple minor mods I think it might be perfect for the Universal Rifle project. It has an Edge-type fore-end, and is very slim in the wrist so it can be free-recoiled.

But--and this is the genius of the design--the rear of the grip is radically relieved in a curve that fits the natural contours of the hand perfectly. If you want to grip the stock lightly, your hand is placed very close to the centerline so minimal torque is applied. This stock is the creation of David Thompson of California and was a one-off creation from what I was told.

 

[dreever]

Well.........

You won't be able to shoot it in IBS or NBRSA short range competition. 13.5 pound weight limit for HV would preclude it's use. Even if you could, in short range score the 30BR is unchallenged, in group you would have the PPC to contend with. I do not think you would be competitive in either venue.
Also there are no beginner classes, a first time shooter must shoot against the best of the best. The twenty year old guy on a budget walks in and he immediately has to shoot against Tony Boyer. Might not be fair, but that's the rules.

It would be legal,and competitive for the most part)for most Ground Hog competitions but you would be severely under scoped at 300 and 500 yards/meters, so you would be better off not supplying a scope unless you just do it as an option. You have a custom gun that will have to compete in the custom class, again against the best of the best with all those Nightforces.

Now having sighted the negatives, I still think it would be a good way to get the first time custom owner started. He could take it from there with a better trigger,barrel,optics,rings,etc.
It would especially be attractive at a $1400 price.

I think you MUST have a stock with a three inch fore end. I also think you MUST have a trigger that can be adjusted relatively light. What's another $45 for a Jewell? Barrel choices would have to be either a 14 twist for the lighter bullets, or an eight twist for the heavies. I don't think there is such a thing as a do it all twist rate. Since you already have eliminated yourself from IBS/NBRSA short range competition I would think the eight twist would be the logical choice. That way you could compete in IBS/NBRSA/Williamsport 600 and 1000 yard benchrest competitions.

All in all, if you can do it for $1400 sign me up for the first one which I'll buy for my son who will be shooting with me in the near future,he's nine now).

Just some early morning thoughts.

Danny

 

[Ogre6br]

very cool idea.

Would you be able to flute the barrel to put it under the 13.5 limit but still have the bull barrel profile for stiffness???


Could an option also be a reater ??

later
P

 

[Forum Boss]

Danny,

Your points are well taken, but remember, organizations exist to serve the shooters, not the other way around. The whole point is to create a class that will breed MORE competition. Look at the popularity of F-Class for example.,I also suspect that if a one-design rifle will bring more members into IBS or NBRSA, they would, sooner or later, create a new competition class).

I think it would be a mistake to build to a 13.5 lb rule just to squeeze into existing HV classifications. I want to get away from all that. I want to shirk limits that don't make sense and serve only to raise the cost of equipment. Existing LV/HV benchrest competition is too expensive, there are too many cases of "BR burnout" after a season or two, it is not attracting younger shooters, and the ratio of trigger time to reloading/cleaning/fussing-around time is way out of balance. The concept is a new class, and ultimately you create rules that make sense for it.

If you start with the attitude that "it doesn't fit existing classifications" then you're left with the "same old, same old" and that, IMHO is the problem. There are what 5000 registered short-range BR shooters in the country? And how many 30BR shooters... a few thousand at most? I compare that to the number of guys who might participate in club shoots, and well you get the idea.

Perhaps I've not explained the concept adequately. The idea is not just to build a cheaper rifle and use it in existing classfications. Rather a new classification is created, and either the sanctioning bodies find a place for it--or you run your own matches. Considering that 95% of the shooting matches in the country are already being run independently with Nothing whatsoever to do with IBS, NBRSA, Williamsport etc.

In F-Class, the F-TR division was essentially created to encourage participation by factory-type 308s and .223 rifles.

The fastest growing shooting sport is Cowboy Action, and it basically didn't exist a decade ago. Now SASS has over 60,000 members. The "Wild Bunch" started that whole thing because NONE of the existing pistol shooting leagues offered a game they wanted to play. So they made their OWN sport with their OWN rules and it is hugely successful. In auto racing, club level participation quintupled once some affordable, strict one design classes were created. Same thing with motorcycle racing. And sailboat racing. The J24 revolutionized keelboat racing with strict one-design rules and the Laser and Hobie cat did the same with small boats.

Re the stock, the one in the picture is a 3" wide fore-end. I agree that is desireable. As to the trigger, if the new Kelbly will go down to 8 oz. and costs less than a Jewell, maybe it is the way to go. This is just an idea for discussion. But you have to set cruel dollar limits, or you end up with $1200 actions and $1000 stocks.

As to being "underscoped", keep in mind that Hunter BR is currently shot with 6X scopes and Palma guys are using irons at 1000. Maybe there is a better 8-24x option. But right now if I were to shoot a match with a $500 variable, I'd pick the Leupold 8-20 EFR. The Zeiss Conquest 6-20 is a better scope, but it runs around $780.

 

[JeffT]

Paul,
that sounds great, except you eliminated left handers with the Predator action :,



Jeff

 

[dreever]

Paul,

I agree with what you say about the existing classes. The big hangup is with the organizations themselves. I'm speaking of IBS/NBRSA. IBS won't consider classes other than LV,HV and the occasional factory rifle that is allowed to shoot. NBRSA won't consider VFS which is the fastest growing benchrest class. IBS will accept NBRSA membership to compete in their matches, NBRSA won't reciprocate.

So that leaves club matches and Ground Hog shoots where the rules are different from club to club. Not a bad thing. Sort of like drag racing in the old days before rules, rules, and more rules forced the run what you brung guys back out on the streets. So you need each individual club to create this special class for these rifles to compete against each other. If the interest builds,maybe. The big thing is getting people involved, by volunteering to help, to be on the shooting committee, and to assume some responsibility. Now that becomes a tall order. Seems like everyone wants to shoot, but nobody wants to help.
Right now every match director and committee member out there is shaking their head in agreement.
I think it could happen, but it will take a lot of work to make it a reality.

Danny

 

[dreever]

Jeff,

What do you mean, I'm left handed, and a right bolt right port is an advantage for us lefties. I wouldn't shoot any other configuration.

Danny

 

[ReedG]

I like your concept.

Wouldn't even mind seeing it done with Savage actions,ouch, don't beat me!). A "blueprinted" and timed Savage action has unbelieveable strength and is very smooth. Cost is only $105 above donor action. Just an idea and will cut costs another couple 100 bucks. I know people think they are "ugly" and not popular, but look at the national and regional championships won by Savage-actioned rifles in the last few years. They will shoot.

My vote for "all-purpose" stock of choice is the excellent Shehane Lee Six pattern ambidextrous thumbhole laminated stock. This stock is a tremendous design for many different uses. If extra weight savings is necessary, Lee Six still offers the design in fiberglass.

The weight being over 13.5 lbs. is going to be problem, though. Even if the membership of IBS and NBRSA wanted to adopt the heavier weight class it would take years to get the rules rewritten and you don't even want to hear the p-and-m you'd have to go through. You should at least make an effort to keep total weight in the 13.5-lb. range to get any kind of universal acceptance.

With a Savage action, you can then use pre-chambered barrels which cut down on the cost of chambering and threading a blank, plus with the savings over a "custom" action you could have two barrels, one for point-blank 13.5-lb. class,1:14) and one for longer range 16.5-lb. class,1:8).

No loading at the range gets my vote. Don't care much for factory ammo though. 6BR with .272" neck is superb, no need to fool with that.

There is a lot of "meat" in your proposal and I believe the details could easily be worked out. But for the lack of "political" cooperation between factions, you probably will be creating a new series rather than one that will be adopted by the current organizations.

P.S. I think in benchrest shooting a lefty shooting a right/right has an advantage. You didn't get left out.

 

[JeffT]

Danny,
it's not an advantage if you don't have a right hand, it's to awkward for me.

 

[savet06]

I like it! NASCAR for the shooting sports.
I do like the thought of my first custom gun being "competitive" with guys all along the line next to me. The fact that there is no "beginner" class really deters people like myself who don't have a lot of disposable income from entering into heavy duty competition.

I really like the fact that this kind of thinking is out there, and people might be willing to carry out this kind of change.
I would love to be a part of whatever might be necessary to get it off the ground. If you need any volunteers let me know.

Never accept the status quo!
Mike

 

[Forum Boss]

I like it! NASCAR for the shooting sports.
I do like the thought of my first custom gun being "competitive" with guys all along the line next to me. The fact that there is no "beginner" class really deters people like myself who don't have a lot of disposable income from entering into heavy duty competition.

I really like the fact that this kind of thinking is out there, and people might be willing to carry out this kind of change.
I would love to be a part of whatever might be necessary to get it off the ground. If you need any volunteers let me know.

Never accept the status quo!
Mike

Mike--

Yep, you got the idea! Just the other day, I said--look at the success NASCAR has had with tightly controlled competition to create parity and keep costs under control.

I'm glad someone understands that the whole idea is to start something new, that should be much less expensive than current classes of competitive BR, and yet still offer very high "performance". I shoot 600 yards with an 8-25 LRT, but it's usually cranked to 22 or 23X for less distortion, so I think a 20x will be fine.

Obviously the more people that jumped into the class the lower the cost of certain components, such as stocks and maybe even pre-chambered barrels.

Regarding the weight limits, keep in mind that the limit for current IBS and NBRSA 600-yard competition is 16.5 or 17 lbs for Light Gun. So, it is just a matter of letting a 16.5 pounders shoot in shorter distance matches as well IN THEIR OWN CLASS. Since there is a heavy "unlimited" class in both Score and Group competition already, what's the issue? You shoot the same targets, use the same benches. The PPC guys keep doing their own thing, but now there's a whole bunch of guys with $1400 rifles who can compete from 100 to 1000 on an even playing field with low-cost components.

 

[AlNyhus]

Paul, I agree with the basic concept. I have some different views on the specs/components, but the actual makeup of the rifle isn't really important as long as it's the same for everyone.

The key to getting it to work would be to have all the relevant shooting organiztions legalize this one set of specs. for one class of rifle competition.

For those that remember the IROC series, it was very similar. You could call it the Crossover Rifle Class.

"Hello, Mr. Gunsmith-man? I'd like to order a Crossover Class rifle with a,insert your favorite color) stock. Next Friday? Why yes, that would be a fine day for me to pick it up." :thumb:

Sure would be simple, wouldn't it? -Al

 

[Forum Boss]

Paul, I agree with the basic concept. I have some different views on the specs/components, but the actual makeup of the rifle isn't really important as long as it's the same for everyone.

The key to getting it to work would be to have all the relevant shooting organizations legalize this one set of specs. for one class of rifle competition.

"Hello, Mr. Gunsmith-man? I'd like to order a Crossover Class rifle with a,insert your favorite color) stock. Next Friday? Why yes, that would be a fine day for me to pick it up." :thumb:

Al, you raised some very good points. What's your input regarding components? Plainly this is just in a brain-storming phase now and I'd like to get your input.

To me the big question-mark is prefit barrels. That would really make things easy, but, as noted, I'm not sure barrel suppliers can deliver the consistent quality of chamber that a good smith can.

It also may be asking too much to allow a switch-in rimfire action, though this is quite common in Europe. The Ross system permits that but it uses a clamping block to hold the barrel,s).

 

[Travelor]

I really like the idea of a "NASCAR" class. I would think a great way to get into this would be to use the Model 12 Long Range Precision Varminter as the basic "NASCAR" chassis allowing only truing, bedding, trigger, and barrel changes. This way we could get in the game and be competitive equipment-wise while learning the wind, etc. The way it stands I jus cannot afford to be competive equipment wise, so I don't play this game. I would love to if the "NASCAR" class happens.

I vote a RESOUNDING yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BountyHunter]

"Your points are well taken, but remember, organizations exist to serve the shooters, not the other way around."

Heresy, heresy!!!! pull that man's tongue out!

Now you know all the various org staffs right now are planning linear ambushes for you.

As for actions, for $695 you can get a Barney Lawton action. I just ordered a 1.450 diameter single shot SS in RB DP and he makes them any configuration and single shot or repeater in 1.350 and 1.450 for $695. The 1.650 is $795. My action came in to Bruce Baers shop in about 30 days. Pick it up next week.

As for ideal stocks, Bruce makes a laminate with extra long 3" Edge front, Tooley MBR rear with either taper or 1/2 flat on the bottom. Mine is coming with the 1/2 flat,$270 inletted).

Now add the Jewell trigger, Krieger LV 29" 9 twist and 108 gr BIBs and perfect setup.

BH

 

[rhino]

I think a custom action is in order.

Yo, you gonna run with this design? I think the key here is a stock everyone could live with.

I think some of the people, including me for my first 2 years overlook the importance of a good stock that matches your shooting position and sytle.

this guys stocks seem to run similar price so why not have the option for the stock?

Just a thought...and I figured I would keep prices down.

http://mcgeestocks.com/stocks.htm#

On the Savage action, I really have to say I think you'd be limiting your aftermarket parts and goodies..I think that is the reason for the stiller.

I would be interested in this rifle if a group buy got together sorta like the Snipers hide rifles from GA percision.

Got a smith in mind?

RHINOUT!

 

[Aussie_bob]

Don`t limit it, if you go with the idea make it international and float the idea maybe we can get a standard class rifle made with all the right components for a budget price and shoot an international competition.
Every one with the same spec rifle depending on barrel quality rifle to rifle and ability to Work up what you think is the right load etc.
Similar to the queens shoot over here but that's limited by ammo every one uses Mil spec ammo supplied.
Concept is good still a lot of holes.

 

[Forum Boss]

Rhino,

Good tip on the McGhee stocks. The McGee F-class in Walnut is just $170,but I don't know if that includes inletting.) $230 in Rutland lam:

It might be best to have a little drop in the toe of the stock. I know both Bruce Baer and Dave Tooley think that's a good idea. Totally straight stocks don't work ideally with most rear sandbags.

I agree that the Savage action Limits you. And to be honest, the toggle bolt and big firing pin hole aren't so great for the 6BR cartridge. If the gun was chambered in 6.5x47 or 6XC it might not be such a problem.

Personally, I'd say stick with 6BR, because the idea is a 100-600m gun and I think the 6BR will perform better out to 300.

But the important thing is to keep talking and refine the concept.

If the design was built on a V-block. All you'd need is the barreled action and you could put everything else together yourself. That keeps costs down.

 

[Forum Boss]

"As for actions, for $695 you can get a Barney Lawton action. I just ordered a 1.450 diameter single shot SS in RB DP and he makes them any configuration and single shot or repeater in 1.350 and 1.450 for $695. The 1.650 is $795. My action came in to Bruce Baers shop in about 30 days. Pick it up next week.

As for ideal stocks, Bruce makes a laminate with extra long 3" Edge front, Tooley MBR rear with either taper or 1/2 flat on the bottom. Mine is coming with the 1/2 flat,$270 inletted).BH

BH,

Very interesting and appropriate component selections. Can you post some pix of the action and contact info for Barney. I don't have that action in our Custom Action page and it sounds like it deserves consideration. That's what a Barnard used to cost,with Trigger!) but those days are over, thanks to the declining US Dollar.

Here's a Baer MBR style; I couldn't find the one with the Edge-style fore-end: