Under gunned on elk hunt ughh

[Drop Port]

OP good call, ethics conversations are all BS, do this, don't do this etc. Ethics comes down to the person on the trigger, if you practice enough and understand your equipment and conditions you have to make the call. I don't believe in overkill and don't mind plowing a deer with a 338. Dead is dead you can't get more dead. I've culled countless deer with 6mm through 338's past 500 yards and passed on just as many shots. The toughest shot I've ever taken and second guessed was at 170 yards and there was absolutely no way to get closer.

PS the the most accurate rifle money can buy in the wrong hands will wound more deer than knowing your rifle and your limitations.

JM.02

 

[rpierce]

I agree w Drop Port. The amount of Fudds on here is hilarious. 500+ yds is too far blah blah blah. Don't define a persons limits based on your own. Do most people have any business shooting elk at 1000? no. But for people that put in the work its not hard. Its called being selective on when and how far you shoot based on conditions. Having the right equipment and knowing its limitations. Plug in the ballistics of a 195 berger at 3150 fps at 10,000 ft elevation. Its a laser beam. I called the wind for a buddy on a bull at 1150 yds. He had a 28 nosler I had built for him and it shot under 2" at 600 for 10 shots. At those conditions it was like shooting my 284 winchester back home at 800 yds. I sat behind the glass for 10 minutes reading wind or lack of. 2 mph wind right to left which canceled out spin drift. Dead within a couple feet of where it got hit. I would have bet 5k on it being a dead elk before he pulled the trigger. If your not 100% positive then don't shoot. Now the 7 hour round trip with horses to get it back to camp sucked LOL. There was zero chance of getting closer before they made it to the timber. Not having that capability would have resulted in him not filling his freezer that year. I haven't built a 28 nosler in quite a while due to the 300 norma improved and 30-28 nosler rifles ive been doing for people. The 30 cal magnums perform better on elk at distance. 215 gr berger at 3150+ fps or 230 bergers at 3000 fps. That will stomp em. I do have a BIG 338 in the works that will be lightweight and have my cheytac brake on it that I just made in titanium. Shaved 6 oz off from the steel version. Completely kills the recoil on 338s.

 

[JimT]

As these discussions usually progress the intellectual Fudd’s trot out the “ethics” is an individual based concept argument. Of course it’s not!

https://www.diffen.com/difference/Ethics_vs_Morals

BTW, a KILLING shot on an elk at a thousand yards can never be 100% assured. That is, where I live, wind gusts start at sometime somewhere and elk choose to move before you see them move. Of course maybe that’s just a the Fudd in me thinking.

 

[rpierce]

It can if certain conditions are met. If theres only 2mph wind then there wasn't enough wind to blow the bullet out of the vital zone even if I didn't account for the wind. I had almost a 5 mph window to judge the wind and still hit vitals at that distance and bullet setup. Like I said. I would have bet 5k the first shot was going into the vitals. This is one of the reasons I don't advertise on this site. Too many people decide their limits should be someone elses. And I don't have time for internet arguments. I practice and shoot several thousand rounds a year through lightweight bigger magnums. Ive also gotten more national records and championships in one year than most do in a lifetime lol. Ive lost track of what all Ive won. Like I said. It depends on the shooter and equipment. Theyre not all created equal.

 

[Tommie]

Tactards versus fudds. Ah yes, let the name-calling begin.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

It can if certain conditions are met. If theres only 2mph wind then there wasn't enough wind to blow the bullet out of the vital zone even if I didn't account for the wind. I had almost a 5 mph window to judge the wind and still hit vitals at that distance and bullet setup. Like I said. I would have bet 5k the first shot was going into the vitals. This is one of the reasons I don't advertise on this site. Too many people decide their limits should be someone elses. And I don't have time for internet arguments. I practice and shoot several thousand rounds a year through lightweight bigger magnums. Ive also gotten more national records and championships in one year than most do in a lifetime lol. Ive lost track of what all Ive won. Like I said. It depends on the shooter and equipment. Theyre not all created equal.

What makes this site so good is its much higher level of combined experience.

 

[rpierce]

Most of the members on this site have experience in benchrest or fclass. Theyre not pushing big bullets really fast. Dashers, 284 Winchesters, 300 wsm's etc while extremely accurate do not compare to 338 lapuas/edges/normas, 300 norma/improved/ or rum, 33xc etc for wind drift and performance. Night and day difference as you know. What is a long shot to guarantee first round impact with a dasher or 284 isn't for example compared to 215 gr bergers at 3200 fps or 300 gr bergers moving really fast. To say that something isn't ethical based on ones own restrictions and putting those restrictions and judgement on others also isn't really fair. Not everybody has the equipment or skill to do it right. I do applaud the OP for not taking the shot. Its hard to do and is something that everyone should do. Any responsible hunter won't take the longest shot possible just to pat themselves on the back. If possible you should always get as close as possible. Sometimes, as you know, that's just not possible. Having the equipment and skills can be the difference between filling the freezer or not. Or not getting a once in a lifetime bull or buck.

 

[Bc'z]

Just to be clear the stride of a mature bull at a walk can be from 30"- 60".
Paper targets stay stationary until pulled by the man in the pits.
Just saying..

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Most of the members on this site have experience in benchrest or fclass. Theyre not pushing big bullets really fast. Dashers, 284 Winchesters, 300 wsm's etc while extremely accurate do not compare to 338 lapuas/edges/normas, 300 norma/improved/ or rum, 33xc etc for wind drift and performance. Night and day difference as you know. What is a long shot to guarantee first round impact with a dasher or 284 isn't for example compared to 215 gr bergers at 3200 fps or 300 gr bergers moving really fast. To say that something isn't ethical based on ones own restrictions and putting those restrictions and judgement on others also isn't really fair. Not everybody has the equipment or skill to do it right. I do applaud the OP for not taking the shot. Its hard to do and is something that everyone should do. Any responsible hunter won't take the longest shot possible just to pat themselves on the back. If possible you should always get as close as possible. Sometimes, as you know, that's just not possible. Having the equipment and skills can be the difference between filling the freezer or not. Or not getting a once in a lifetime bull or buck.

Theres a lot of us here that shoot hunting rifles at 1k and farther all year around. There is no substitute for shooting at those ranges and often to maintain the skill. 400yds wont teach you a thing. You dont see a lot of posts about it due to the fact that the most experienced guys realize what it takes and do not want any one thinking its easy or you can buy something that will allow you to do it. LR BR was born from hunters shooting long range and nothings changed. Any time I see some one post something that makes taking a cold bore shot at 1k or beyond sound easy or no big deal, I KNOW that person does not have much experience shooting those distances cold bore.

 

[rpierce]

I realize that. I have my own 1000 yard range 50 yards from the shop Alex. I plan on expanding it to 1500 this coming year. Before I had that i would go to the farm and practice although it was a pain to drive there. Elk vitals are 16". Not that hard to hit if your sure of the conditions, equipment etc. Like I said. You only shoot at something when your absolutely sure of the situation. Im done with this thread as its turned into a waste of time just as I figured it would. I personally don't care what other peoples limits are. I know my limitations given certain conditions and don't push them. Have a good weekend guys.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Congrats on the new range. You will learn a lot from it.

 

[284winner]

Well let's all just hang up our hunting rifles because animals have legs. They may use them to walk away from a bullet that already left the barrel of the rifle. Come on. Let's be real here. We all know less than perfect shots occur in these situations. They sometimes can't be helped. When a pack of wolves take down an elk, it's not pretty. It's called life and death. Nature and all it has to do with the cycle of life. We fit in that equation too. I will not stop hunting game animals at Long ranges because something MAY go wrong. I've wounded animals as most have. Move on from it. We don't set out to do it but it does happen. Archery hunters more than rifle hunters. Some wound elk at 20 yards. What about that scenario ? I've lost deer archery hunting. I Feel terrible but move on from it. It's been 20+ years since I have because I learned from the experience. It can happen today just as easy. I have my muzzleloader in hand as I type this watching deer at 177 yards. If I squeeze the trigger and one moves before that slow ass 300 grain slug gets to him, it's possibly a wounded deer. Some things just can't be avoided unless you stay home on the couch.

 

[300_whisper]

Now you have an excuse to get a 338 Edge, Lapua, Norma, or Rum. Or all 4!

 

[North Fork]

Build a 300 win mag and load it with 185 gr Berger hunting bullet then go out and shoot prairie dogs with it out to 600 yards or more .

 

[fyrewall]

Elk hunting at extreme ranges sounds like military stuff to me. I can appreciate extreme range abilities but that is not for me. If I had to shoot an elk I would use my .300 Win mag loaded with 200 ELDX bullets at about 2800. My max range would be 500 yards but my real comfort zone would be 400 and less. I have shot 1,000's of 168's from a .308 W at 600 and observed the 7 ft. drop and wind drift when sighted in at 200 and a noticeable time of flight. The .300 Win mag would give me more confidence. My primary concern would be the bullet time of flight, with a time of flight about slightly under 1 sec. the target can move more than a foot very easily. Shooting rodents way out there with the 200 grain ELDX load is a real education - a crash reality experience.

For destruction (shooting Toyota trucks) at extreme ranges like 1000 and more I hear a 225 .30 works but that to me is not ethical hunting.

Edit: I just can't handle screwups when killing stuff.

 

[KY_Windage]

Theres a lot of us here that shoot hunting rifles at 1k and farther all year around. There is no substitute for shooting at those ranges and often to maintain the skill. 400yds wont teach you a thing. You dont see a lot of posts about it due to the fact that the most experienced guys realize what it takes and do not want any one thinking its easy or you can buy something that will allow you to do it. LR BR was born from hunters shooting long range and nothings changed. Any time I see some one post something that makes taking a cold bore shot at 1k or beyond sound easy or no big deal, I KNOW that person does not have much experience shooting those distances cold bore.

Amen. Here is a group of 5 shots I made at 600 yards, trying to brain this "wolf." 4 were pretty good but one jumped out 4 - 5" to the left (that is not a bullet strike in between, it is a splatter-strike). This was on a PERFECT day with ZERO wind, me shooting on a PERFECT bench rest with match bullets.

It also took me a LOT of work (load development, etc.) to be able to shoot that well.

I like the placement of 4/5 but that 5th could have missed both the heart and lungs on an elk.

If I can eliminate the 1/5 flyer, great, I'm good to go on 600-yard elk every time I have PERFECT conditions and a sold rest.

If not, I prolly need to figure that 500 yards, or 400 yards, is my actual maximum first-shot range on elk.

If you cannot keep them in a 5" circle at the range, then you have no business trying to shoot game at that distance.

 

[remingtonman]

Anybody that has spent time hunting elk will tell you that the modern fad of the 6.5 isn't a good choice, unfortunately so many people parrot what they read on the BSnet that new hunters think that any 6mm cartridge will be fine - they aren't.

The .308 and 30-06 are common for a reason, they work. The .308 will drop elk reliably out to 500 yards and the 30-06 can stretch that range to 700 yards or so, any shot past those ranges is irresponsible and unethical. There are far too many variables that can effect the shot past 600 yards and it's just wrong to take live game past that range. There isn't any ethical reason to take a long range shot and while tons of people will brag about their successful 1000 yard plus shot they wont mention how many times they've wounded animals and lost them.

None of us will go hungry if we don't drop that animal so why take questionable shots with under-powered cartridges at unreasonable distances and possibly cause the animal to suffer a needless death.

Some will risk taking that shot due to paying $6-700 for an elk tag.

 

[AZHunter12]

All of these his talk about “practice” is BS unless you are practicing in conditions you will be hunting in. A little different hitting a gong at 800 yards in July in Maryland in a t-shirt, than an elk at 11,000 feet in October ,on the side of a mountain in Wyoming, in 20 degree weather, with switching winds, wearing your bulky camouflage duds, and panting and sweating, after slooooowwly climbing the mountain, in light conditions you’ve never remotely practiced in. I could go on.

Exactly. Everyone's a 1 MOA shooter on the bench and frequently in a Leadsled for magnum calibers.

 

[ms6852]

I applaud you for not shooting a fine animal at that distance. You show a lot of promise. Hunting is not hunting if you can't get close to the animal. I've hunted for more than 50 years using only one rifle a 30-06. Know your caliber it's strong points and weak points and use them to your advantage. A 338 will give people a false sense of security and just because it is a larger caliber does not mean that your shot could have been a success. Too many variables can change in an instant from the moment you fire to the moment the bullet strikes its intended target. Every year I see people shooting hour after hour their hunting rifles from the bench at the range but never do I see anyone practicing with shooting sticks, kneeling, or sitting or shooting prone, or free hand and than they come back telling the same stories that they can't understand how they missed and blame their equipment. I'm now at an age that if I can't stalk the animal and get close I am not shooting it, because I refuse to walk a mile to and from lugging meat. I now prefer my kills real close to camp or preferably those that I have runned over with my truck. A successful hunt does not necessarily require you to kill an animal but just to have the time to spend outside with nature, your friends and your family, the animal is a bonus but the time spent with your loved ones out in nature is not, it's priceless.

 

[Flouncer]

3000 fps 200g bullet. Ouch. 26 lb recoil. No mention in here at all regarding the importance of an accurate well placed laser range finder. And well placed at that. At 700 yards, with a 500 yard zero you are throwing a 5 foot diameter Tom Brady hail Mary pass. Click click click clickity click. Check the little dots on the reticle. Don't lose count. A puff of 10 mph wind is a 20-inch miss. Just more to the lore Hope you practice a lot with the 26 lb recoil boomer. Hunting weight rifle at 9,000 feet. The 6.5-284 is almost as good balistically without the pain and flinching. Bad cartridge comparison IMHO. Stay with the 6.5mm and 50g of powder.