Two separate groups
- Thread starter MGYSGT
- Start date
I had a Remington Model 17 and a Mauser Model 96 do that in both caces it was an improperly bedded action.
It's fairly common in sporterized military rifles, if fact the Remington is sensitive to how you torque the screws in the action. It took several attempts to get that one to shoot repeatable cold bore groups. In my case It was the price of using the cheap butched stock that came with the rifle.
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ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
Kids in the back did the work?Bedding? My used 1965 Winchester model 70 internal magazine was to long, after new barrel & new bedding. The action screw will be tight, but action can still move.
A well known 1960s gunsmith shop did the work. He was retired. Kids in the back room did the work.
When i took gun back, guy tightened action screw. Broke floor plate. New/Used floor plate didnt seat into wood stock. Not latching.
So called "gunsmith" turned rifle so its resting on my new 6x18 Redfield scope.
Take a very large screw driver, plastic end and pounded on the floor plate, to seat into the wood.
That A Hole almost died that day.
Sold M70. Bought Remigton 40 X.
Learned to do my own bedding/gun smithing.
I do not and / will not even have employees anymore because even people who kind of know what they're doing
is like babysittng
I cannot trust any one else to do what I do, and double check their own work
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I do not understand how people like that even START to be in business
let alone continue to stay in business
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My customers have learned, I am not quick, but it's done right or not at all.
coldboreshot
Silver $$ Contributor
Brett, I question that myself. Even if the shots were placed in succession, if the shooting does not have the same placement on the gun from shot to shot, it can generate 2 sometimes several impact points. I've seen this happen with shooters at the range whether on the bench or prone.
Most of the time with these types of posts, evaluation goes way off into the weeds but what is commonly overlooked, is the shooter.
I've witnessed one dude fire a round of 10 shots and have 3 beautiful groups in 3 different locations. 4, 3 and 3. Also seen shots volley back and forth between 2 impact points. All because of inconsistent buttstock pressures. Doesn't take much to shift an impact.
"WE" are the weakest link in the rifle system, provided the system and load is solid.
coldboreshot
Silver $$ Contributor
Well spoken
ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
Bingo Spot on Assessment!
Holding the rifle "Consistently" takes more years of practice than it takes to learn how to shoot.
I posted a vid once educating people and showing how much a rifle moves
Just from the trigger mechanism firing using a 2 ounce trigger. (free recoil)
Just the spring movement of the firing pin alone jiggles the rifle .006"
This one thing, will move POI at the target over 1/2", from 100 yds away
And then consider all the other things going on moving the rifle at the same time
Primer ignition, powder ignition, pressure build up, initial bullet movement out of the neck
Bullet engaging rifling etc etc etc.
Controlling a rifle throughout it's internal movements during the firing event takes much more than people can even think.
Learning how to shoot small groups is a muscle memory thing
Muscle memory in position, shoulder pressure , placement on the shoulder etc
It must be Exact and perfect
I am a perfectionist most of the time,
Most people however, make excuses not to do things perfectly
We're only human, everybody makes mistakes
How about, "If it can be done Perfect then do it, if it can be done better, do it better"
Failure to always be doing whatever it is , better each and every time until it's perfect
---is a repeated self induced - pyschological setup FOR failure, not success
BUT----
Once a person gets it down, it can stay with you for a long time with minimal upkeep.
1. Knowing when to squeeze off the shot
2. Follow through,
Are the 2 most important in my opinion.
Follow through being pinnacle, this is steering the rifle as it is moving.
You will know your shot was on or off, just from follow through.
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hpshooter
Gold $$ Contributor
In my pre arthritis across the course days this would happen to me with both service and match rifles but only in slow fire. Tightest groups were in the rapids. In the slow fire stages I would either be attempting to square up my position every 4 or 5 shots or just flat out loose concentration. the multiple groups were always within an inch to 1.5 inches of each other.
Same thing happens now shooting 300 yard F class club matches if I make the slightest change in position or forget to slide the rifle back against the stop on the front rest.
Operator error in my case. My shooting buddy could take me to the cleaners score wise using my rifles and my ammo on the same day with the same conditions.
Same thing happens now shooting 300 yard F class club matches if I make the slightest change in position or forget to slide the rifle back against the stop on the front rest.
Operator error in my case. My shooting buddy could take me to the cleaners score wise using my rifles and my ammo on the same day with the same conditions.
I just shot this yesterday, any thoughts? After shot 3 I really really tried to be consistent in manners. (5 is under 6, this is at 600y BTW.) With a tenth more powder it doesn't seem to do this, but maybe a bit less accuracy is masking the split?
Attachments
I'm having a similar issue with my 6x45. I've been working up loads of 55, 58, 75 and 80 grain bullets. I did ladder tests with each from an un weighted lead sled. All were clustered pretty well together 2 inches high and 3 inches right. When finished I took what I had most of and corrected for zero 2" high. The next day I took the same loads and shot a 3 shot group with each off sand bags. The poi shifted 2.5 inches left. So if had shot the day before off sand bags all loads would have been pretty much zeroed 2" high. So has anyone else seen a poi shift from sand bags to lead sled or do I have another issue. I'm going to resort off sand bags tomorrow to check zero.
ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
My rifle is a 24" heavy barrel, free float hand gaurd and I was only shooting at 50 yards. Like I said, I will try them again tomorrow off the sand bags. This is a hunting rifle not competition and I hunt mostly from tree stands. I usually lay the forend in my hand wheather off the bench or in the stand so that the condition is consistent. Of course I didn't do that on the lead sled, however I guess I could have.
Not that I am an expert shooter but lots of mistaken odd looking groups are blamed on the rifle or the load when in fact either the shooter or the other equipment (bench, rest, rear bag, etc.) is at fault. If a shooter is consistently seeing these divided or odd looking groups I would suggest taking an inventory of all the items mentioned and the attitude of the body when approaching the shot. It is common knowledge if your crosshairs move off of the POA as you over take the rifle preparing for the shot you are setting your self up for an ugly group whether it happens or not. One well know retired F-class shooter explains it on a video with Erik Cortina on "Believe the Target". Shooting "free recoil" or some variation thereof is the answer to this equation for many but that requires a technique well developed and good concentration to do exactly the same thing every shot.
ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
Yes, very much this ^^^
If you think you're all good, AND you have aligned your natural POA
Take a few dry fire shots next
if your crosshair moved off your aim point, at all just from dry firing
so will the bullet
but will be even more compounded by the recoil event
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Your crosshairs have to stay put exactly,
until you are finished pulling the trigger back all the way to its stopping point
(One reason I do not adjust my trigger stop very close to sear break: another Hint)
I'd rather the spring absorb my trigger movement after the sear breaks
I just got back in from checking my zero with my hand on the sand bag and forend on my hand. Group did move a little but not near as much as going from sand bags unsupported to lead sled. I shot 2 each of 55, 58, 75, 95 and 100 grain bullets. All were in a nice little cluster. Then made final adjustments and shot last two with the 55 grain bullets so all should be centered left to right, 2" high. This is my typical deer zero, I just hold for wind and use maximum point blank range for elevation. This will get me out to 300 yards or so which is about where the 6x45 will drop to @2000 fps. I've seen videos where people shot from various bypods, sand bags and rests and claim there is no POI. This has not been my experience!
This is why I always try to remember to zero my rifle with the forend resting on my hand. I always have it with me, . That way whether I'm shooting off a tree limb or the rail on my tree stand the zero should be the same.
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