redrockranger
Silver $$ Contributor
Ruger #1's can be eye candy. Had one. I'd take a Savage PTAction any day. Rugers are inheritantly . inaccurate from the box. You will spend much bucks to make it shoot. My opinion.
Turn-bolt or Gas-gun .223R for F/TR?
- Thread starter AR Shooter
- Start date
While that was certainly true at one point (and for many years), Ruger's new rifles have gotten up to what one could consider 'the norm' for an off-the-shelf gun. Not unusual to hold 1moa. At least mine does at 200yd. Problem is that once the barrel starts getting some heat into it the vertical stringing begins. A problem based on how the forearm is suspended and bipod is attached on a No.1. Think I have a fix. Just have to decide if I want to spend the time/effort to implement. Tough to beat the Savage 12 F/TR for $1200.
Have found a new M700 SS 223 action for $400. So.......... $100 to make the bolt be all it can be, another $600 to barrel, $100 for the trigger guard and magazine components, $200 for a decent trigger and $350 for cheapo stock and I'll have a rifle. So ~$1800, or so, to get started. The Savage 12 F/TR is looking better all the time.
Have found a new M700 SS 223 action for $400. So.......... $100 to make the bolt be all it can be, another $600 to barrel, $100 for the trigger guard and magazine components, $200 for a decent trigger and $350 for cheapo stock and I'll have a rifle. So ~$1800, or so, to get started. The Savage 12 F/TR is looking better all the time.
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Having a large sampling of experienced shooters who were given the voluntary choice of .308 or .223 who chose the .308 doesn't ring any bells? More times than not, the obvious answer is the right answer.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Again, you're equating personal preference to be the same thing as actual knowledge, yet you have no real idea how much many of those that chose the .308 do, or do not know. You're also equating personal preference to actual performance, which may also be completely misleading. Certainly some percentage of the more experienced shooters have very specific knowledge why they chose a particular caliber. However, they may well also be heavily biased by multitudes of people that KNOW beyond a doubt the .223 simply CANNOT be competitive, despite the fact that they often have no actual experience even shooting a .223 in F-TR competitions. In contrast, I do have experience shooting .223s in competition, and I know from personal experience what they will and won't do. That's fine with me, I've done quite well shooting the .223 against people shooting .308s that also KNEW the .223 simply COULD NOT be competitive.
However, if you really want to do a true test and actually provide a quantifiable answer to the question, pick 10 top-level shooters and put a .308 in the hands of 5 of them, and a .223 in the hands of the other 5. Then let them shoot a 1600 point match or two together and quantify exactly how well each [equally-well represented] caliber performs. Of course, it would be a LOT easier to simply look at the BC and typical velocity numbers for the 90 VLD and compare them to those of several.308 bullets that are commonly used in F-TR competitions. Those numbers tell most of the story. The OP demonstrated their personal preference and specifically asked for specific information about using a .223 for F-TR.
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For F-TR, I recommend a .223 Rem bolt gun for most newcomers to the sport, especially if not shooting at 1000 yards. You have a lot to learn, and that learning will likely happen much faster with an accurate .223: lower recoil, inherent accuracy, easy to shoot well.
When I think about accurized AR projects in high power, I think mostly about the new AR Tactical division. There are some limits on barrel length and scope magnification. But the AR Tactical category shoots on a "normal" high power target with the 10 ring 2 MOA and the X ring 1 MOA.
F-TR shoots on the F-Class target face with a 1 MOA 10 ring and a 0.5 MOA X ring. That level of accuracy is much more challenging with a semi-auto. Competing with the bolt guns is likely an exercise in frustration. If you want to shoot an accurate AR off a bipod with a scope, target the AR Tactical category. If you want to shoot F-TR, get a bolt gun.
When I think about accurized AR projects in high power, I think mostly about the new AR Tactical division. There are some limits on barrel length and scope magnification. But the AR Tactical category shoots on a "normal" high power target with the 10 ring 2 MOA and the X ring 1 MOA.
F-TR shoots on the F-Class target face with a 1 MOA 10 ring and a 0.5 MOA X ring. That level of accuracy is much more challenging with a semi-auto. Competing with the bolt guns is likely an exercise in frustration. If you want to shoot an accurate AR off a bipod with a scope, target the AR Tactical category. If you want to shoot F-TR, get a bolt gun.
True and if want to be a loser at the lowest possible cost, any old AR-15 will do. I've never seen any gas gun in the top half of F-TR matches where I shoot. So if scoring poorly at a low cost is the goal, go with a cheap gas gun, but I would advise against buying one for F class competition.
The good news is that nearly everyone has an AR-15 laying around or can borrow one. If a shooter mounts a bipod he/she can come out to a local F-TR match and get started at a VERY low cost. If anyone is interested in what F-TR competition is all about, bring your AR and check it out. I like to say, F class is a lot like masturbation ................. it's much more fun doing it than watching it.
And some places have special classes for AR-15 style rifles with limits on scopes, barrel length, etc. so that might be a consideration if there is enough local interest.
However, if the goal is to learn about mid range shooting, possibly be competitive on a local level, and have lots of fun inexpensively, consider one of the Savage 12 variants. In box stock condition this thing can (and has) win plenty of local matches.
Now if you have plans to go the big leagues, it's hard to argue against the .308, but for me the .223 is much more appealing from several points of view; cheap, near zero recoil, etc. My guns are far from box stock, but they are based on the Savage 12 style action and they do their fair share of winning on a local level. Is the barrel nut ugly?........ only if you look at it............ avert your eyes.
Well......... I shoot my Hepburn in BPCR & BPTR off of sticks, but we are interested in minute-of-animal or the larger mid-range targets, not F-Class. I've just floated the barrel on my No.1 and will give that a try whilst figuring out a bolt-gun.
And, on a bolt-gun build.............. my thinking is a BAT or other custom action is overkill for a .223. I've found M700 SA in .223 and M700 single-shot actions in .308 (talking bolt-face dimensions). But, no single-shot M700 action with a .223 bolt-face. Are the bolts interchangeable? Could I purchase one of each and then simply swap the bolts and sell the M700 SA with .308 bolt? Worth time/cost/effort?
And, on a bolt-gun build.............. my thinking is a BAT or other custom action is overkill for a .223. I've found M700 SA in .223 and M700 single-shot actions in .308 (talking bolt-face dimensions). But, no single-shot M700 action with a .223 bolt-face. Are the bolts interchangeable? Could I purchase one of each and then simply swap the bolts and sell the M700 SA with .308 bolt? Worth time/cost/effort?
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
I built my 223 on a R700 by ordering a bolt from PT&G and having my smith fit it up and converting a 308 that I'd been running as a backup. (it's a switch barrel now) Screwed on a Lilja 1:7 three groove and I was in business. It has a single feed plate epoxied in the feed port. The bolt will cost you about $300 by the time you get it fitted up.
That said, there is nothing wasted on building a custom 223 for mid range. Build it on a short action and if it were me today I'd buy two bolts (223/308) for it when I ordered it.
When the wind is down mid range F class is about pure precision. I saw an F-Open match in StL where a 599-41 or something like that was good for 4th place.
Look at some of the scores from the guys at last yrs MS state championship. There may have been a 600 or two on the first day in F-TR.
That said, there is nothing wasted on building a custom 223 for mid range. Build it on a short action and if it were me today I'd buy two bolts (223/308) for it when I ordered it.
When the wind is down mid range F class is about pure precision. I saw an F-Open match in StL where a 599-41 or something like that was good for 4th place.
Look at some of the scores from the guys at last yrs MS state championship. There may have been a 600 or two on the first day in F-TR.
Attachments
Have located M700 stainless 223 actions in both single-shot and multi-shot. Is there any reason to pay $200 more for the single shot action as compared to the action with the cut-out for the magazine feed? Will the additional stiffness of the single-shot receiver be noticeable with the 223 80gr or 90gr loads?
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
What he said...
Just put in a single feed follower from Brownells or Midway. If you change your mind later you can turn it back into a BDL and use it for hunting
OK........... stainless M700 .223R action on its way. Now have to decide what barrel. Do I want a 28" Bartlein 5R rifled 7" twist or a 28" Kreiger 4-groove in a 7.7" twist? It would be nice to be able to shoot 90gr bullets if I decide to shoot some 800/900/1000yd matches. Just not sure about a 5R barrel.
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I know a couple people with the 4 groove's are having issues with 90's coming apart. Maybe There would be an advantage to the 5r with that issue.
I think Greg Taylor has used 5r's and I don't think he has had any problems with them coming apart. Maybe he'll have so some input.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
7.7 twist is not nearly enough twist to run the 90s, you will be limited to the 80-something grain class of bullets. In addition, you may want to consider your 28" barrel length further. As Wade's results prove, it will certainly work, but if you want to hit the highest accuracy nodes available to you, a 30" barrel will allow you to do so with slightly less pressure. Brass life when using those nodes is not so great to begin with, and the shorter barrel will either force you to run higher pressure than you might want to, or accept a slightly lower velocity. Anyhow, something to consider now as you're building it from the ground up and still have the option of selecting whatever you want. If the 28" will do everything you want, stick with it, but I would at least think about a longer barrel if you're going to shoot at 800/900/1000 very often. With a .223 at those distances, every little bit helps.
As far as the 5R, I only have one rifle that doesn't have a 5R barrel; it really doesn't shoot that well and I certainly don't compete with it. I use Bartlein 5R barrels in everything I compete with. The main reason for that is not because I have any proof whatsoever they're superior to Brand X Rifling Type Y, but simply because they have always worked very well for me...no reason to change something that is working. Both of my .223s have been shooting lights out with the 90s, the new one that I'm currently getting up to speed seems like it's really going to shoot well.
I am one of the minority as far as seating the 90s; I typically find optimal seating depth is .015" to .020" off the lands. More people have had success seating them into the lands by .005" or .010", even though they used the exact same reamer I used. Does that have anything to do with the rifling? I really have no idea why the seating depth should be so different when these folks are using the exact same powders/primers as I do, the same barrel length, and have chambers cut with the same reamer. What I do know is that the 5R barrels I am using shoot the 90s just fine. I also have another .223 in which I shoot the 80.5 Fullbore bullet, which wears a 7-twist 5R Bartlein and shoots extremely well.
Having said all of that, I don't think you'd go wrong with a 4 groove Kreiger either. Any barrel made by a top maker such as Bartlein, Kreiger, Brux, etc., ought to do the job quite well as long as you get at least a 7-twist. A 7-twist will be sufficient to stabilize anything you want to shoot up to and including the 90s. You may give up 2-3 % of the maximum [theoretical] BC possible by shooting the 90s out of a 7-twist, but it works just fine out to 1000 yd. IMO, there is no need to go as fast as a 6.5-twist. People have occasionally had issues with jackets coming apart using the 90s. Some have found that to be a function of not keeping their chamber/throat/barrel scrupulously clean. I always keep mine clean, and have never experienced this issue. However, I can only imagine that it might be exacerbated by using a faster (6.5-6.0) twist barrel. As I said, there is really no reason to go that fast as a 7.0 twist works just fine. If you really want to get every single speck of BC available from the 90, a 6.7-6.8 twist will be sufficient, but not any bit more than you need. Your chances of finding a 7-twist blank already available (in stock) somewhere are also much better than the chances of finding a 6.8 or 6.7 twist, which are essentially zero.
As far as the 5R, I only have one rifle that doesn't have a 5R barrel; it really doesn't shoot that well and I certainly don't compete with it. I use Bartlein 5R barrels in everything I compete with. The main reason for that is not because I have any proof whatsoever they're superior to Brand X Rifling Type Y, but simply because they have always worked very well for me...no reason to change something that is working. Both of my .223s have been shooting lights out with the 90s, the new one that I'm currently getting up to speed seems like it's really going to shoot well.
I am one of the minority as far as seating the 90s; I typically find optimal seating depth is .015" to .020" off the lands. More people have had success seating them into the lands by .005" or .010", even though they used the exact same reamer I used. Does that have anything to do with the rifling? I really have no idea why the seating depth should be so different when these folks are using the exact same powders/primers as I do, the same barrel length, and have chambers cut with the same reamer. What I do know is that the 5R barrels I am using shoot the 90s just fine. I also have another .223 in which I shoot the 80.5 Fullbore bullet, which wears a 7-twist 5R Bartlein and shoots extremely well.
Having said all of that, I don't think you'd go wrong with a 4 groove Kreiger either. Any barrel made by a top maker such as Bartlein, Kreiger, Brux, etc., ought to do the job quite well as long as you get at least a 7-twist. A 7-twist will be sufficient to stabilize anything you want to shoot up to and including the 90s. You may give up 2-3 % of the maximum [theoretical] BC possible by shooting the 90s out of a 7-twist, but it works just fine out to 1000 yd. IMO, there is no need to go as fast as a 6.5-twist. People have occasionally had issues with jackets coming apart using the 90s. Some have found that to be a function of not keeping their chamber/throat/barrel scrupulously clean. I always keep mine clean, and have never experienced this issue. However, I can only imagine that it might be exacerbated by using a faster (6.5-6.0) twist barrel. As I said, there is really no reason to go that fast as a 7.0 twist works just fine. If you really want to get every single speck of BC available from the 90, a 6.7-6.8 twist will be sufficient, but not any bit more than you need. Your chances of finding a 7-twist blank already available (in stock) somewhere are also much better than the chances of finding a 6.8 or 6.7 twist, which are essentially zero.
OK........ sounds like a 30" Bartlein 5R barrel in a 7" twist is the way to go. Will shoot 80's of some sort at 600 and have the option for longer/heavier bullets, as needed.
Is there a minimum barrel profile you would recommend? Have found a Bartlein #13 contour 'on-the-shelf', but am thinking I might order a #18 Whitley medium Palma contour.
Any suggestions on who I should get to put this together for me? Who has the reamer that you've mentioned? Would they also do the squaring of the bolt-face and lapping the lugs, etc.?
Thanks for all the good info. Much appreciated.
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Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Choice of smiths is pretty open. There are many that can do a good job, pick one you like. Having someone close by is always good when possible. The reamer most commonly used is from Pacific Tool And Gauge, and is known as "223 Rem ISSF" reamer. It has 0.169" freebore. Alternatively, a 223 match reamer could be used, then the freebore lengthened with hand reamer like PTG's UniThroater.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
**Opportunity knocks**
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/wts-savage-ftr-223.3923532/
Buy that, start shooting.
Order a 30" 1:7
Order a PTG ISSF 223 reamer
When barrel comes in get it chambered (without nut) for the 90VLDs.
(Jim Crofts won the FCNC twice I think shooting a Savage action.)
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/wts-savage-ftr-223.3923532/
Buy that, start shooting.
Order a 30" 1:7
Order a PTG ISSF 223 reamer
When barrel comes in get it chambered (without nut) for the 90VLDs.
(Jim Crofts won the FCNC twice I think shooting a Savage action.)
Thanks, but I can't bring myself to own a Savage. Even the ones that beat me are ugly. ;-)
Went with a stainless M700 .223 action, Bartlein heavy varmint profile barrel & Stocky's stock. My local 'smith, who has primarily gone over to the 'darkside' (gas-guns), has agreed to put everything together. He sounded happy to have a bolt-gun to work on.
Is the X Mark trigger worth messing with or should I simply get a Jewell HVR or Timney or whatever?
EDIT: OK, Rifle Basix 4-20oz trigger has been ordered. Everything is "in the mail" to start the build, so will drop off at the gunsmith next week. Hope to have in time to break-in and develop loads before our August state championship. Fingers crossed.
Thanks to everyone for their input.
Went with a stainless M700 .223 action, Bartlein heavy varmint profile barrel & Stocky's stock. My local 'smith, who has primarily gone over to the 'darkside' (gas-guns), has agreed to put everything together. He sounded happy to have a bolt-gun to work on.
Is the X Mark trigger worth messing with or should I simply get a Jewell HVR or Timney or whatever?
EDIT: OK, Rifle Basix 4-20oz trigger has been ordered. Everything is "in the mail" to start the build, so will drop off at the gunsmith next week. Hope to have in time to break-in and develop loads before our August state championship. Fingers crossed.
Thanks to everyone for their input.
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"...and it slams the round home and you're ready to go...."
May be ready to go but what does that do to the concentricity of the round. Not much at 100 but may adversely affect things at 600.
May be ready to go but what does that do to the concentricity of the round. Not much at 100 but may adversely affect things at 600.
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