Turn-bolt or Gas-gun .223R for F/TR?

[AR Shooter]

Was going to build up a Ruger No.1 in .223 for F/TR. However, after much discussion and going back and forth with my No.1 gunsmith he has convinced me that I would money, and, especially, time ahead to go with either a turn-bolt or gas-gun to be competitive. Go with a 'proven' formula is his suggestion. Am thinking either a White Oak match upper, stock & Geissele match (rather than the current SR) trigger in my AR lower or a Savage 12 F/TR rifle to get a quick start. I wouldn't mind trying a Tikka T3x Sporter, but they don't appear to have made it into the country as of yet.

So, what say you?

 

[cmillard]

might I recommend compasslake engineering if you go the at-15 route. Great people to deal with!!!! I think you should go with the ruger #1 to be honest. reason being, when you start beating people with it, they wont believe it from the platform its being launched from

 

[Downhill]

Have two White Oak Armaments. Never had to consider anything else.

 

[AR Shooter]

Yes....... have been a WOP customer for years.
It would be fun to do the No.1 and actually beat a few folks. Floating the front-end and attaching the bipod without ending up with a vertical sting is tough. Do have the trigger worked down to something manageable. I'll give it some thought.

 

[Knotwild]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think FTR is shot single loading each round, which would be a pain with an AR.

 

[AR Shooter]

You are correct about loading. But, with an AR it is very simple. Slap in a single-shot block/magazine, drop a round into the receiver and push the bolt carrier release and it slams the round home and you're ready to go. Blot carrier locks back when you fire a single round and just repeat the process. Actually faster, easier than a bolt-gun.

 

[1911mag]

Rock River National Match my choice if using AR

 

[Knotwild]

You are correct about loading. But, with an AR it is very simple. Slap in a single-shot block/magazine, drop a round into the receiver and push the bolt carrier release and it slams the round home and you're ready to go. Blot carrier locks back when you fire a single round and just repeat the process. Actually faster, easier than a bolt-gun.

That makes sense. Thanks.

 

[Nowhere Man]

FWIW, I don't remember ever seeing someone shooting an AR platform win an F-Class match that I've ever been at. Many times they get discouraged and never come back. Bolt guns pretty much rule.

 

[mac86951]

26"+ barrel for sure if you go AR.

Better to pick the bullet first. Are you wanting 80s or the 90?

-Mac

 

[XTR]

If you want to be truly competitive build a bolt gun.

Take the time to read some of the threads in here. At 600 yards you are running against 308s and 223s with 30" barrels. The competitive 223s are running 90VLDs in the range of 2800FPS. The 308s tend to be running their 1000 yard loads, with some guys shooting a 155 load.

In order to win 600 yard F-TR matches you need to agg about 99% with over 50% X count, and that won't do it some weekends.

If you just want to come out and participate, then grab anything and come play, but I wouldn't build something for the game that was less than competitive.

 

[AR Shooter]

Leaning towards a turn-bolt action. Will shoot primarily 77/80gr bullets (whichever one it likes the best) at 600yd. May occasionally shoot a 1000yd match, where I'll just have to suffer in the wind.

 

[akajun]

if you go AR, which if your good enough you could still win, get a WOA with a 26" barrel and the extended length gas system with a 1/7 twist. THis will give you the option of shooting 80-90 gr bullets and get the velocity out of them you need and not tear up the gun/brass.
Id personally go bolt gun with a 1/7 twist, for the heavier bullets.

 

[Nowhere Man]

Leaning towards a turn-bolt action. Will shoot primarily 77/80gr bullets (whichever one it likes the best) at 600yd. May occasionally shoot a 1000yd match, where I'll just have to suffer in the wind.

I'd urge you to seriously look at the .308. And, before the ".223 is good enough" crowd chimes in, take a look at the results from this year's F-Class Nationals. Only one shooter made the top 10 shooting a .223. Nine others chose the .308

 

[BoydAllen]

I am curious. Can someone point me at some 600 or 1,000 F class match results that show that I gas gun did well? It is my impression that this is pretty much a bolt rifle game. IMO for any kind of competition, it would probably be a good idea to attend a match or two and talk to competitors before planning a build or purchase.

 

[XTR]

If you are really building a 223 to play F-TR then the

I'd urge you to seriously look at the .308. And, before the ".223 is good enough" crowd chimes in, take a look at the results from this year's F-Class Nationals. Only one shooter made the top 10 shooting a .223. Nine others chose the .308

I'm going to offer a differing opinion here, or at least some perspective. I'll grant you that on paper the 223 shooting 90s gives up half a bullet diameter to a 308 on a one MPH shift. I am a firm believer in the 223 with 90VLDs for mid range.

Traveling to the Nationals most people are going to shoot long and short range, and most of those would never consider carrying a 223 to shoot at 1000, so even those who would shoot a 223 at mid range aren't going to carry two rifles and two sets of ammo for a travel gig. It makes more sense to carry one setup. Add to that that a lot of guys don't bother with a second rig for mid range in any case then you get to the point that 9 out of 10 on the line are shooting a 308 you can expect the results to reflect it.

That said, I have carried mine on the road. While my personal performance has not always been up to scratch, my 223 has won two yard lines at the Sinclair's in the last couple of yrs. In 2015 I won SOA at Raton. In the final Agg my X count was 12 higher than the F Open winner, in large part because of the scores I put up with the 223 at the short lines.

The top 3 places at the TN state mid range this yr were all 223s shooting 90VLDs

Don't sell the 223 short for a mid range rifle. Shooting the 90VLDs is gives up nothing but recoil.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I'd urge you to seriously look at the .308. And, before the ".223 is good enough" crowd chimes in, take a look at the results from this year's F-Class Nationals. Only one shooter made the top 10 shooting a .223. Nine others chose the .308

This is a straw man argument. How many people actually even shot a .223 as compared to those that shot .308s? I'l bet it was at least 30:1 or more in favor of the .308. With ratios like that, a "numbers" comparison will never tell real story, because you really don't know why someone chose a .308 instead of a .223, nor do you know how the .223s would have fared if there were approximately equal numbers of them on the firing line.

 

[AR Shooter]

Have zero interest in beating myself up with a .308. If the .223 can't do it then I'll just have to suffer.

I'm not finding much in the way of 'off-the-shelf' turn-bolt rifles with 8" twist (or faster). Am not a fan of Savage and they seem to be the 'only game in town' for bolt-guns. A gas-gun in 7" or 8" twist seems to be a considerably less expensive to start then a comparable turn-bolt.

 

[XTR]

More butts have been whipped by off the shelf Savages than any other in F-TR. They are the only manufacturer that makes an off the shelf competition ready F class gun

 

[AR Shooter]

Yep......... pretty sad commentary on all the other non-custom rifle builders (Remington, FN, Sako, etc.).