I’m not so sure about these one.
Tuners
- Thread starter Bottom Fodder
- Start date
Then, monkey see, monkey do it. Sorry, but that's all that your post tells me about your own tuner testing. Not intended to be an attack but just please, give me something besides what others that don't want to accept anything different. If it works for them, no reason why it won't work as well for you. Seriously, I'm not trying to argue and we should all do what we think gives us the best chance to win. But I call BS on things that are based on the way things were done 60 years ago unless you can definitively tell me why that method is best. There are shooters that can beat most of us with a broomstick. Not gonna argue but I will hope to hear a scientific reason that supports your position.
Ahhh...good question. For the most part, heavier is better but with counterintuitive exceptions. That being, the stiffer the beam, the sooner a tuner can become too heavy. Talking BR contours here. Not hunting bbls. I found about 12 ounces as a safe max for any contour tested, including 16" 1.450 straights. Actually tried some reverse engineering that turned this up. I think any tuner between even zero added weight to about 12 ounces will work but I prefer tuners that are toward the heavier end of that over lighter ones. That's when we see drastic changes in how they work. A little can make a large difference. I tested this with different weights, medias and locations relative to the muzzle, quite a bit.
Positive Compensation. Tuners don't make PC possible. It's there even without a tuner.
This is absolutely false. A Pressure Trace system that measures the stretch of the bbl can and does see primer ignition, peak pressure and bullet exit. Not sure if they are still in business but my PT system came from RSI ballistics, IIRC. It uses strain gauges to convert stretch to current that can be graphed. We overlayed this with vibration to establish exit time relative to muzzle position.
ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
Really?
Well why didn't somebody tell somebody then?
I hadn't read that anybody was measuring pressures in this manner
More good info, you're quite an excellent informant
-----------
However I still believe in rare (very rare and likely almost must be perfect conditions for it to happen)
circumstances that powder can go from deflagration to detonation
Such as Nitromethane can also do the same, after they found out when shipping some by train and it went off,
And thats what I find would be difficult to duplicate and measure.....
... if colliding standing waves are a contributor since it is the supersonic wavefront that sets off an explosive.
Which would be even more interesting to me if a tuner could alter this occurence as well
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Then I'm not sure you understand what pc is. I think Alex posted in agreement. Someone did. Ask them.
I could send a pic! RSI Laboratories is right, I think. They may be out of business. My unit quit after leaving it plugged up in a thunderstorm that happened overnight. Musta been pretty sensitive because it was plugged into a usb port on the computer and the only thing that died from the storm, was the Pressure Trace system.
ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
Dang, how unfortunate, that looks like an indispensible testing tool
It was pretty handy but not a huge amount of money. At the time, I think $400-$500. I do miss it at times though.
ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
This may help provide anyone with a good understanding of "PC" within the context of this thread.
I had to refamiliarize myself as well to be sure I was understanding correctly as it relates to tuners.
Positive Compensation vs Negative Compensation
explained in Post #6
Positive compensation and its explanations .
Enjoy gents . Just released. Tim Sellars - Positive Compensation | #92
www.snipershide.com
This is why I normally refrain from engaging in a peeing contest. Its interesting that you mention pressure tracing. The testing I have done and seen from others indicates big variances in chamber pressure. My experiences with tuners has been much like many others. Trigger, trigger fall consistency, trigger timing, brass consistency, primers, powder, friction, heat, and a host of other things cause barrel harmonics and dynamic changes within the barrel, shot after shot. Even with match primers, the abundance of pressure trace data illustrates that you can run a test on 10 different primers one day and get different info the next day. A powder manufacturer assured me that nobody would ever calculate the surface area of every kernel in a load, but weighing powder is the best we can do. Just because the weight indicates the same, that does not mean the square inch area of exposed powder is the same. Mass versus surface is not exactly the same, shot to shot. You nor anyone else knows what variable may come up on the next shot. Although small, they are variables. Pressure Trace indicates this with the wide swings in pressure. One shooter may experience 5,000 psi high to low. The next guy could experience up to 7,000 psi, and some have seen a bad primer lose 10,000 psi from the high. These are match primers. We are not talking 60 years ago stuff as you mention. I have seen guys make a tuner adjustment (one builds tuners and win matches), yet he says, where the heck did that come from. You tell me how you know exactly where to move a tuner in the middle of a match that will compensate for the variables that you are not even aware of. I've done plenty of testing on barrel harmonics and counting pixels. We have a patent pending on a pressure regulating device that could show some promise. Air gun guys figured this out long ago. Now they use regulators. I realize mixing air guns with a powder burner is apples to oranges, but it gets to the point that its really a pressure thing, shot to shot, causing much of our problems. Folks are doing the best with what we have and may I say, doing well! If folks want to use tuners, go for it. I hope it works for you. Its not my inability to know what to do with a tuner. Thats why I don't use one. We sure don't need to make out like it's the magic bullet! I often can widen the node with just a 2-3 oz weight and do my load develop. That's no magic bullet either and that's why probably nobody on this thread is winning every match they attend!
I pretty sure I know what PC is.
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
While I haven't measured, the reportedly velocity uniformity of air rifles is amazing. Even for springers. We have a lot to learn.
I agree with much of your rant. I also win my share of matches as do many others that tune the way I do.
Beyond that, ya kinda lost me.
Sure is and a .750 straight air rifle bbl provided the very first bit of data that I've referred to.
Frankly, it's a lot easier to find people to question things than it is to find people to do the testing for themselves. Not you, as I'm sure you understand.
Interesting post from the office T-Rex, with all due respect I’ve never heard of him or seen him on any firing line. Which long range competitor would he be ?This may help provide anyone with a good understanding of "PC" within the context of this thread.
I had to refamiliarize myself as well to be sure I was understanding correctly as it relates to tuners.
Positive Compensation vs Negative Compensation
explained in Post #6
Positive compensation and its explanations .
Enjoy gents . Just released. Tim Sellars - Positive Compensation | #92
Thx
ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
Good question, Perhaps get on "the Hide" and ask him as well about the info I relayed
Supposedly he was asked by the Military to solve some problems for them as he states here in post 271...
could be how he gained part of his experience
Positive compensation and its explanations .
Well it appears he is trying to help but you want to call him out instead of trying what he had tried to relay . Why is that? Telling me what he thinks I should agree with is not helping. That’s narcissistic. Providing the information asked for …you know exactly what was ask for several...
www.snipershide.com
Here is some more info on the subject - Rimfire but the principle stills holds
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