Tuner weight

[diego-ted]

There is another factor. If you carefully examine the very fine work of Varmint Al, you can see that he uses an eight ounce weight at the muzzle of a HV rifle to retard the rise of the muzzle so that all bullets will exit before the barrel reaches the top its swing, creating what others have called positive compensation, He also showed that by simply lengthening the barrel that the same thing could be accomplished. I think that this accounts for the light weight of some tuners that were designed for long barrels. In those cases the effect is only being adjusted rather than created. Even if compensation may not be fully created due to rifle design constraints, it seems that there are some benefits to tuners that fit within those requirements.

Things that make you go hummmmm?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Tuner weight and placement does essentially two things. One is it lowers the frequency vs a lighter tuner, very slightly widening the tune window. And two, it INCREASES INITIAL amplitude, showing tune more clearly, with more authority. Yes, increases the initial amplitude. Not for long, but we're only worried about the time the bullet is still in the bore. While a barrel can be tuned with less weight, to me, it's very much about recognizing when the gun is not in tune as much as when it is. That's how I know what and when to adjust it. A heavier tuner makes that much clearer and easier IME.

Al's target is exceptional in how little it changes. Personally, I don't care for that because it's tough to read tune in conditions...but the shapes I look for are still there..just smaller than is typical. I don't mean his gun shoots better or worse than others but the change is less than what is typical over a rather large sample size of well over 1000 test targets from mostly different guns and shooters. Lots of variables to group size and displacement when out of tune. Hope to test bbl homogeny soon using cryo'd bbls vs non- cryo'd

 

[JEFFPPC]

I don't have a lot of experience with a tuner....just the 2023 season on my 30BR HV gun with an Ezell PDT 7 oz. tuner. And some work years ago with the Ralph Stewart/Gene Beggs style tuner. While a well tuned up 30BR is probably the worst BR rig to use as an example of what a tuner does and doesn't (or will and won't) 'do', it showed me exactly what I was looking to see. Talking with competitors whose experience I respect at tournaments, the ones with less than stellar results with tuners had one constant...weight.

These are three shot groups on the test format that Mike recommended I run. I repeated this test multiple times to identify trends. Mike and I have friendly diverging ideas about some of this.
I'll be continung this with a different barrel for the 2024 season to see how it acts. The fun is in the learning and seperating the pepper from the fly poop.

Go shoot 14 and see if it repeats. I would like to see a 15 also. But, I try to get to 14 by load developement and use the tuner to keep it on point. Just what has worked for me for about 20 years.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Go shoot 14 and see if it repeats. I would like to see a 15 also. But, I try to get to 14 by load developement and use the tuner to keep it on point. Just what has worked for me for about 20 years.

I think I told him the same thing, fwiw. It'd be nice to know what 15 and maybe 16 do.

 

[AlNyhus]

Go shoot 14 and see if it repeats.

As I stated in my original post: "I repeated this test multiple times to identify trends".

I would like to see a 15 also.

I might have thought to do that. Who would stop at 14 and never go further if you're actually testing?

On multiple test sessions, I ran the tuner from zero'd right off the face of the barrel section to fully 2/3rds. out the length of the threads. The same patterns repeated over and over within each full rotation of the tuner....only the numbers changed. I had a hunch about how the tuner would respond as it got further out on the threaded section of the barrel. Ultimately, testing didn't back up my suspicion.

In actual NBRSA competition, 12, 13 and 14 (and 6 and 7) were on for multiple yardage wins and one Grand Agg win.

I'm neither pro nor con tuners. I'm just reporting what happened with my junk. Lesson learned on responding to anything with the word 'tuner' in it.....

 

[Tim Singleton]

As I stated in my original post: "I repeated this test multiple times to identify trends".

I might have thought to do that. Who would stop at 14 and never go further if you're actually testing?

On multiple test sessions, I ran the tuner from zero'd right off the face of the barrel section to fully 2/3rds. out the length of the threads. The same patterns repeated over and over within each full rotation of the tuner....only the numbers changed. I had a hunch about how the tuner would respond as it got further out on the threaded section of the barrel. Ultimately, testing didn't back up my suspicion.

In actual NBRSA competition, 12, 13 and 14 (and 6 and 7) were on for multiple yardage wins and one Grand Agg win.

I'm neither pro nor con tuners. I'm just reporting what happened with my junk. Lesson learned on responding to anything with the word 'tuner' in it.....

That’s a really nice barrel!!!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

As I stated in my original post: "I repeated this test multiple times to identify trends".

I might have thought to do that. Who would stop at 14 and never go further if you're actually testing?

On multiple test sessions, I ran the tuner from zero'd right off the face of the barrel section to fully 2/3rds. out the length of the threads. The same patterns repeated over and over within each full rotation of the tuner....only the numbers changed. I had a hunch about how the tuner would respond as it got further out on the threaded section of the barrel. Ultimately, testing didn't back up my suspicion.

In actual NBRSA competition, 12, 13 and 14 (and 6 and 7) were on for multiple yardage wins and one Grand Agg win.

I'm neither pro nor con tuners. I'm just reporting what happened with my junk. Lesson learned on responding to anything with the word 'tuner' in it.....

I'm not sure where your last comment is based. All I can say is after reading, re-reading and being careful not to piss anyone off, I guess I still did. There, IMO, was nothing derogatory in anything that I said, unintentionally and certainly not on purpose and I don't see it in others' posts either.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Is he still in business?

They were the first tuners I tried, 15+ years ago. Had a tuner break on a dasher that was pretty good even by todays standards. And Im not a tuner guy.

 

[JEFFPPC]

The pattern will continue to repeat. I found with the tuner I use, starting 3 turns out works well. I lock it there then do my load development. I will do a bump either way to see what happens but generally I do not move the tuner until I feel my tune going away which is usually the same time I feel I am not competitive.

 

[AlNyhus]

I didn't mean for my comments to come across as snarkey. Rereading them now, they certainly could be taken that way.

Apologies to all. -Al

 

[jimmymac]

I always feel like I am just scratching the surface with tuners, although I have a number of them from 4 ounces up to 10 ounces that I've used.

I have a new 30BR HV taper barrel that weighs just short of 7 pounds that I will test with using the 10oz tuner on a target like Al made. To get started with this barrel, instead of finding tune first then adding the tuner into the mix after the fact, I screwed it on with zero rounds fired. The initial setting blew me away during barrel break in printing a small 5 shot group in the low 1's, so I'm not disappointed that I started out with the tuner attached to the barrel from the get go. This is the second barrel in a row where I've done it this way and tweaked from there. The first one provided excellent match results. This one shows incredible promise so moving forward, I see no reason to change my process. I'll attach the tuner from the get go and just pretend it came that way from the smith. I've done it the other way around where I found powder and seating depth tune first, then added the tuner. All it did for me was increase the number of shots I fired through my barrel, essentially wasting barrel life.

 

[jimmymac]

I didn't mean for my comments to come across as snarkey. Rereading them now, they certainly could be taken that way.

Apologies to all. -Al

Nope. Not snarky. I wrote the book on snarky at some point early last week where I had to come back and throw asphalt patch down where I made a hole.

 

[Fuj]

I won't name or take a pic of the tuner but, after removing a few
parts then fastening 4 more ounces to it, I went to work. I was at
3/4 of a turn out for #40 and #38. I kept going 5 more numbers
but no improvement. Short on ammo, I dialed back to #39 to see
what was between #40 and #38......This is my Ridgway steel load
that might just end up doing short course work this year.

 

[JFrank]

Nope. Not snarky. I wrote the book on snarky at some point early last week where I had to come back and throw asphalt patch down where I made a hole.

Cold patch”n” a chuck hole.. I know the feeling. Lol

 

[Ccrider]

I didn't mean for my comments to come across as snarkey. Rereading them now, they certainly could be taken that way.

Apologies to all. -Al

Cabin Fever has started.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I didn't mean for my comments to come across as snarkey. Rereading them now, they certainly could be taken that way.

Apologies to all. -Al

Hey, we all believe in what we do......or we should. If you get involved, don't have a thin skin . Lots of experience and knowledge on here, well worth a few bumps and bruises.

 

[Fuj]

Just for arguments sake....What has been the heaviest anyone has
run across in a tuner. I have seen a few barrels at Ridgway that
looks to be on the crazy side of one lb or more screwed on the end ??
I swear, one looked like a beer can and was not a suppressor !! LOL

 

[Rat Rifle]

Just for arguments sake....What has been the heaviest anyone has
run across in a tuner. I have seen a few barrels at Ridgway that
looks to be on the crazy side of one lb or more screwed on the end ??
I swear, one looked like a beer can and was not a suppressor !! LOL

The “LUMP“. Not really a tuner, just weight. But it provided some of the best results when ”Johnny” did his comparison checks. And it is not adjustable.

 

[Fuj]

Cabin Fever has started.

Not on my end !! UPS dropped off my last, end of the year order.
Tuner weight material for playing, and a 4" wide chunk of 6061
for one of my chassis stock forends. The 6 inch long, heavy walled
tube weighs 17 ounces. Should be good for a couple.....

 

[dcali]

I'm not a tuner expert. I have a couple, and have used them enough to get a feel for them, but that's about it. I don't use them anymore because for the shooting I do, they have not been worth the cost/complexity/time that they demand. They don't solve my biggest problems.

That said, I know a thing or two about vibrations and dynamic structures. Broadly speaking, there are three things that matter - weight, stiffness, and geometry, and all of them are significant. And I'm talking about the whole system, from the shooter's shoulder, the bench, the rifle, the tuner. We as shooters like to try to isolate variables like tuner weight as any good scientist would. But to do that you have to assume everything else is the same. With rifles, that's just not the case. An F T/R rifle vs a PRS rifle vs a short range BR gun vs Long range BR vs rimfire - the rifles are different enough to matter.