Tuner testing

[calgarycanada]

I don't have my pony in race but here is to those who have great load at 1000 but same load is crap at 100, you guys should call Bryan Litz's up and take part in his shoot through target challenge. Maybe it will bring new facts of physics out.

Bryan in another thread posted "Some have tried the Shoot-thru-target challenge. Thier results match ours which is that groups scale linearly with range."

I'm not even close to being an expert so don't burn me please just trying to understand. I believe 100 yards is too close to tell how load is doing because it's hard to measure dispersion, but if you tune at 300, 600 or 1000 difference can't be big enough to worry. JMHO

 

[savagedasher]

Why would someone want to test a tuner? I use mine to tune a load in different wind conditions. Tuners dot just change vertical they also change horizontal. Where vertical and horizontal come together is a tune of some kind.
The tune is one of 4 place off the point of aim. Only with very, very small change that can be done with a tuner do you see it happen. One of the 4 lets you have less wind effect on your bullet. Any wind change the point of bullet impact. Larry

 

[doglegs]

I do all my tuner adjustments at 300y Works good to 1000y

 

[4xforfun]

I do all my tuner adjustments at 300y Works good to 1000y

If you do "all" of your testing at 300 yards, and NONE of it at 1000 yards, you can't know that your 300 yard tune is best.

 

[savageshooter86]

My previous load I did take my best stuff from 500 yards to test at 1000 match. And tuned slightly after at 1000 at next match

 

[BartsBullets]

Catfur -

If you've never tried it, your input is total speculation. Which is fine and your right.....

My input is based on my understanding of the laws of physics, which may be imperfect, flawed or just plain wrong. A tuner affects the internal ballistics of a fired round (by changing the vibration moments of the barrel) by attempting to minimize the effect of barrel vibration on the direction of the bullet as it exits the muzzle. Once it leaves the muzzle, the laws of external ballistics apply, and what direction it left the barrel is unchanged regardless of the target distance. What physical process allows the change in barrel harmonics that a tuner provides to have a different effect at 1000 yards than 100?

While you may experience better results personally by tuning at 1000 rather than 100, I would argue that it's exceedingly difficult to empirically prove that you are really getting better because the change in barrel harmonics, due to the fact that the effect of other factors beyond barrel harmonics (wind, SD, etc...) are magnified to a greater extent at 1000 than at 100. The effects of the barrel harmonics over any reasonable measurement are likely swamped out by the other factors.

There are so many factors that affect shot precision that I'd think you'd want to take as great pains as possible to isolate the factor you are measuring from other factors.

Maybe something else that you are doing when you tune at 1000 is actually what is providing the difference in results (who knows what that might be).
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know how. If I am wrong (and I've been wrong before and will be wrong again), I'd really like to know why I'm wrong and not just that I'm wrong.

Catfur,

Don't let results get in the way of a good theory! Donovan is correct! The only way to know is to shoot your 100 yard tune at its intended yardage. It may be a good tune, but maybe not. I've been there and done that. I've had loads shoot in a knot at 100 and 200 but not hold up at 600 or a 1000. Even in short range benchrest I don't tune the gun to shoot the smallest group possible. I tune the gun to have some vertical which keeps the load from being too wind sensitive. A concept that few grasp.

Bart

 

[Catfur]

How is this any different than Litz's shoot through target challenge (which nobody has demonstrated)?

 

[BartsBullets]

How is this any different than Litz's shoot through target challenge (which nobody has demonstrated)?

I could care less about Litz's test. Its irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. What is relevant is what your bullets do on the target at the distance you're shooting. I would LOVE to be able to just tune at 100 yards and show up for a 1000 yard match and kick-butt. There are some shooters that have been shooting long range for a long time that can get pretty dialed in. But if you're actually going to "compete" you need to show up the day before and see if your 100 yard tune is working. I've got a 100/200 yard range out my back door. I shoot somewhere between 10,000 to 15,000 rounds at 100 and 200 yards a year. A good bit of which are shot at matches. I even have a 100 yard long concrete ditch I can shoot in.

Here's an analogy. It's like a guy training for a marathon but all he does is run one mile and multiplys his best time by 26 to see how fast he's going to run the race.

I'm not saying you can't, but you'll be better off testing your tune at the distance you're going to shoot.

Bart

 

[Catfur]

How is this any different than Litz's shoot through target challenge (which nobody has demonstrated)?

I could care less about Litz's test. Its irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. What is relevant is what your bullets do on the target at the distance you're shooting. I would LOVE to be able to just tune at 100 yards and show up for a 1000 yard match and kick-butt. There are some shooters that have been shooting long range for a long time that can get pretty dialed in. But if you're actually going to "compete" you need to show up the day before and see if your 100 yard tune is working. I've got a 100/200 yard range out my back door. I shoot somewhere between 10,000 to 15,000 rounds at 100 and 200 yards a year. A good bit of which are shot at matches. I even have a 100 yard long concrete ditch I can shoot a in.

Here's an analogy. It's like a guy training for a marathon but all he does is run one mile and multiplys his best time by 26 to see how fast he's going to run the race.

I'm not saying you can't, but you'll be better off testing your tune at the distance you're going to shoot.

Bart

I think your tune is superior because you are tuning at the same time that you are shooting (in a benchrest match) as opposed to at a different date/conditions, not because of the distance you are tuning. I'd speculate in a vacuum tuning at the same time (or as close as possible) to when you are shooting will always be superior. If it's really the distance you are tuning at that makes the difference, which is still a possibility I'm open to, but skeptical of, it'd be awful nice to know why.

I don't shoot benchrest, I shoot F-class. No real way to tune at the same time, or just before a match. If I were shooting benchrest, I'd probably be following your advice.

 

[BartsBullets]

How is this any different than Litz's shoot through target challenge (which nobody has demonstrated)?

I could care less about Litz's test. Its irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. What is relevant is what your bullets do on the target at the distance you're shooting. I would LOVE to be able to just tune at 100 yards and show up for a 1000 yard match and kick-butt. There are some shooters that have been shooting long range for a long time that can get pretty dialed in. But if you're actually going to "compete" you need to show up the day before and see if your 100 yard tune is working. I've got a 100/200 yard range out my back door. I shoot somewhere between 10,000 to 15,000 rounds at 100 and 200 yards a year. A good bit of which are shot at matches. I even have a 100 yard long concrete ditch I can shoot a in.

Here's an analogy. It's like a guy training for a marathon but all he does is run one mile and multiplys his best time by 26 to see how fast he's going to run the race.

I'm not saying you can't, but you'll be better off testing your tune at the distance you're going to shoot.

Bart

I think your tune is superior because you are tuning at the same time that you are shooting (in a benchrest match) as opposed to at a different date/conditions, not because of the distance you are tuning. I'd speculate in a vacuum tuning at the same time (or as close as possible) to when you are shooting will always be superior. If it's really the distance you are tuning at that makes the difference, which is still a possibility I'm open to, but skeptical of, it'd be awful nice to know why.

I don't shoot benchrest, I shoot F-class. No real way to tune at the same time, or just before a match. If I were shooting benchrest, I'd probably be following your advice.

Final tuning at the range is part of it. However, I can often see the same thing shooting 100 and moving to 200. A load drilling at 100 may not work for 200. I see it all the time. I keep working until I get a tune that works at both. For me going from 100 to 200 is just a matter of seconds. For the record I've shot long, short, mid, and F. I'll be doing all of those this year. I understand the different types of tune required for each competition.

I've never been a "why" type guy. What I care about is results. Everything else is just polite conversation.

Bart

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I got to shoot with Alex Wheeler and what he called a good tune at 100 always had vertical in it . That will never work at 1000. He never tuned in the condition we always shot in. Many of the target I got to see was shot before most of got to shoot at the range. I would like to see someone shoot like his record at our range regardless of what yardage the tune was done at.
Going back to 2011 1000 Yd gong shoot I got second I cant recall if Alex shot or not but I remember I was second . 2012 Bostrom won I was second and Alex was third. Both Erick and I tuned at 100 . 2013 Charley Brown won Al got second ED got third. Both charley and Ed tuned at 100 yds. My take from all this is if your gun wont shoot in the condition that you have to shoot in. What Difference Does it make. My guns are all tuned at 100 and the seem to still keep on winning. With a Tuner also. Larry

Well, since you brought it up, I honestly dont remember you ever out agging me in a group match. Gongs require their own set of skills. No doubt you are a good condition reader. I would listen to you and Eric yelling about holding 2" of vertical on a gong, but that never seemed to happen when we shot groups on paper.

I agree 100% with Donovan. For those who have done it both ways, there is no question. He has been preaching it for a long time, and he's right.

 

[memilanuk]

I don't shoot benchrest, I shoot F-class. No real way to tune at the same time, or just before a match.

Sure there is. That's what they make scheduled practices for, or failing that, Approved matches where there isn't anything riding on the outcome. Do your testing beforehand at distance during these type of events, and the results should carry forward to the big matches (Registered events such as state/regional/national level championships).