Tuner testing

[savageshooter86]

What distance should this be done at? 300 yards? Would it help me any to do at 100?

This is 1000 yard FTR rig. But further distances I don't know if it was condiction or me

500 yards is pushing my comfort level to test my loads. Due to mirage and aiming precisely

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I do most of my tuner setting at 100. I then give a couple of settings a try at 300 before I go to the first match.

I'm trying very hard to get a feel for impact point and group behavior for tuner changes. I believe that I'm leaving quite a bit on the table by using a set-it and forget-it tuner setting.

 

[savagedasher]

I do all my tuner setting at 100 yards and with 2 shots. Two shot will if your trying to tune a vertical or a horizontal problem. Larry

 

[dmoran]

Tune at 100 and pray it holds up at 1000....
Tune at 1000 and you know what you have (no praying).

Hardly ever see a 1000yd tune fail, but have seen plenty of 100yd tunes "spray" down range.
Donovan

 

[savageshooter86]

Thanks for info so far

I could sacrifice a match for testing. And worth electronic targets now, might be faster to test

 

[Catfur]

Tune at 100 and pray it holds up at 1000....
Tune at 1000 and you know what you have (no praying).

Hardly ever see a 1000yd tune fail, but have seen plenty of 100yd tunes "spray" down range.
Donovan

Tune at 100 and you know what your tuner is doing, tune at 1000 and wonder forever whether you are measuring changes from your tune or from the wind.

 

[dmoran]

Tune at 100 and you know what your tuner is doing, tune at 1000 and wonder forever whether you are measuring changes from your tune or from the wind.

Have you yourself tuned at 1000-yards?
Donovan

 

[JamesnTN]

Tune at 100 and pray it holds up at 1000....
Tune at 1000 and you know what you have (no praying).

Hardly ever see a 1000yd tune fail, but have seen plenty of 100yd tunes "spray" down range.
Donovan

I don't use a tuner but I've never had a 100 yard tune work out for me at 600 yards. In reality I've not seen a good 300 yard tune work for 600 either. My opinion is tune for the distance you plan to shoot at.

Tune at 100 and you know what your tuner is doing, tune at 1000 and wonder forever whether you are measuring changes from your tune or from the wind.

 

[Catfur]

Tune at 100 and you know what your tuner is doing, tune at 1000 and wonder forever whether you are measuring changes from your tune or from the wind.

Have you yourself tuned at 1000-yards?
Donovan

No, because the wind is always blowing. Maybe if it were dead calm...

But in any case, what is different at 1000 than at 100? The only things I know of are the effects of wind are greatly magnified, and the effects of velocity spread are magnified. Neither of which are affected by a tuner. So why magnify the effects of things that have nothing to do with your barrel tune when trying to find the best barrel tune.

 

[dmoran]

Catfur -

If you've never tried it, your input is total speculation. Which is fine and your right.....

My input, while my own also, is based from going at it both ways. And even some testing at both distances at the same time with the "shoot through" target method at 100/1000. Often (like say +40%) when final tuning, what I have seen works out best at 100yds, does not hold up at 1000yds. Seen the best seating depth at 100 prove out the worse at 1000, and worse at 100 be the best at 1000. Seen .3 and .4 of vertical at 100, flat-line at 1000 and .1's at 100 vertical +5" at 1000.
Again not always, but often enough to prove what you get at 100 does not always hold up down range.

I tuned at 100 for several years and at times was successful with it (like say 60/40). But when I switched to tuning at the desired target distance life got better, loads were more consistent (say like 90/10), and was more competitive day in and out.

Story(s): In early 2014, Alex Wheeler was tuning at 100 that wouldn't hold up when he took them down range. He then switched to tuning at 1000 the day before his seasons first match, and went on to set HV Gun World records. His best tune at 100 was his worse at 1000....

Seen it again this year; one of the best shooters I know had a load tuned at 200yds that he said was giving him some of the best groups he had ever had at 200yds. Took it to a 1000 match and had 8"of vertical and finished poorly.
Next month he goes to a 600 Nationals, tunes when he gets there (day before), and wins it.


With my own barrel tuner (Ezell on my LT-Gun only) started out tuning with the "shoot through 100/1000 method" because most everyone's advise were 100yd based. But finished at 1000 solely because some of the 100yd were obvious to not hold up at 1000.
For me any way, it is a no-brainer to tune at the desired distance, and is what I will continue to advise.
Good Luck all the same....
Donovan

 

[Catfur]

Catfur -

If you've never tried it, your input is total speculation. Which is fine and your right.....

My input is based on my understanding of the laws of physics, which may be imperfect, flawed or just plain wrong. A tuner affects the internal ballistics of a fired round (by changing the vibration moments of the barrel) by attempting to minimize the effect of barrel vibration on the direction of the bullet as it exits the muzzle. Once it leaves the muzzle, the laws of external ballistics apply, and what direction it left the barrel is unchanged regardless of the target distance. What physical process allows the change in barrel harmonics that a tuner provides to have a different effect at 1000 yards than 100?

While you may experience better results personally by tuning at 1000 rather than 100, I would argue that it's exceedingly difficult to empirically prove that you are really getting better because the change in barrel harmonics, due to the fact that the effect of other factors beyond barrel harmonics (wind, SD, etc...) are magnified to a greater extent at 1000 than at 100. The effects of the barrel harmonics over any reasonable measurement are likely swamped out by the other factors.

There are so many factors that affect shot precision that I'd think you'd want to take as great pains as possible to isolate the factor you are measuring from other factors.

Maybe something else that you are doing when you tune at 1000 is actually what is providing the difference in results (who knows what that might be).
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know how. If I am wrong (and I've been wrong before and will be wrong again), I'd really like to know why I'm wrong and not just that I'm wrong.

 

[JamesnTN]

The laws of physics says a bumble bee can't fly and a helicopter can't do a 360 loop.

Again 100 and 1000 are two different animals when it comes to group shooting. Donavan is probably the most knowledgable 1000 yard shooter on this board, and his knowledge is solely based on real world experience of what happens on paper not just a theory.

I would actually be interested in seeing your own results of a 100 yard tune on paper at 1k and let us know just how well that went.

 

[savagedasher]

I got to shoot with Alex Wheeler and what he called a good tune at 100 always had vertical in it . That will never work at 1000. He never tuned in the condition we always shot in. Many of the target I got to see was shot before most of got to shoot at the range. I would like to see someone shoot like his record at our range regardless of what yardage the tune was done at.
Going back to 2011 1000 Yd gong shoot I got second I cant recall if Alex shot or not but I remember I was second . 2012 Bostrom won I was second and Alex was third. Both Erick and I tuned at 100 . 2013 Charley Brown won Al got second ED got third. Both charley and Ed tuned at 100 yds. My take from all this is if your gun wont shoot in the condition that you have to shoot in. What Difference Does it make. My guns are all tuned at 100 and the seem to still keep on winning. With a Tuner also. Larry

 

[Chappy]

Big difference between hitting a gong at 1000 yards and putting 5 shots inside of 3" at 1000 yards at almost every match...

 

[savagedasher]

Big difference between hitting a gong at 1000 yards and putting 5 shots inside of 3" at 1000 yards at almost every match...

None I never have seen a 3'' target or a perfect score of gong hits at 1000 at our range .
In fact I feel gong shooting takes more skill then 5 shot on paper . Gong shoots you get 5 shot then a half hour you get 5 more then another half hour you get the last 5. All this is done without any other practice.
Between practice it can be a half hour before you ever get your first shot off. I will buy the best steak dinner in the town to a shooter. Who can hit 15 gongs or show me 3 3'' target at our range. Wind and mirage dictate to where the bullet is going to go wind the bullet is going I would for you to post 3 targets the were shot after
after a half hour of practice shits.
Texas Road house is not far from the range. Larry

 

[JEFFPPC]

Set up your tuner at 100 yds.

 

[barefooter56]

Practice sh!t$ ?

 

[Chappy]

Big difference between hitting a gong at 1000 yards and putting 5 shots inside of 3" at 1000 yards at almost every match...

None I never have seen a 3'' target or a perfect score of gong hits at 1000 at our range .
In fact I feel gong shooting takes more skill then 5 shot on paper . Gong shoots you get 5 shot then a half hour you get 5 more then another half hour you get the last 5. All this is done without any other practice.
Between practice it can be a half hour before you ever get your first shot off. I will buy the best steak dinner in the town to a shooter. Who can hit 15 gongs or show me 3 3'' target at our range. Wind and mirage dictate to where the bullet is going to go wind the bullet is going I would for you to post 3 targets the were shot after
after a half hour of practice shits.
Texas Road house is not far from the range. Larry

Idk, my hunting gun can hit the 10" gong at 1000 yards pretty consistently, but my load only groups about 7" for 3 shots at 1000.

 

[4xforfun]

Catfur -

If you've never tried it, your input is total speculation. Which is fine and your right.....

My input is based on my understanding of the laws of physics, which may be imperfect, flawed or just plain wrong. A tuner affects the internal ballistics of a fired round (by changing the vibration moments of the barrel) by attempting to minimize the effect of barrel vibration on the direction of the bullet as it exits the muzzle. Once it leaves the muzzle, the laws of external ballistics apply, and what direction it left the barrel is unchanged regardless of the target distance. What physical process allows the change in barrel harmonics that a tuner provides to have a different effect at 1000 yards than 100?

While you may experience better results personally by tuning at 1000 rather than 100, I would argue that it's exceedingly difficult to empirically prove that you are really getting better because the change in barrel harmonics, due to the fact that the effect of other factors beyond barrel harmonics (wind, SD, etc...) are magnified to a greater extent at 1000 than at 100. The effects of the barrel harmonics over any reasonable measurement are likely swamped out by the other factors.

There are so many factors that affect shot precision that I'd think you'd want to take as great pains as possible to isolate the factor you are measuring from other factors.

Maybe something else that you are doing when you tune at 1000 is actually what is providing the difference in results (who knows what that might be).
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know how. If I am wrong (and I've been wrong before and will be wrong again), I'd really like to know why I'm wrong and not just that I'm wrong.

Sorry, but the wind doesn't matter when you are testing a tuner. What you are trying to tune out is the vertical in your group. Unless you have vertical winds happening at your range, don't worry about it. Tune at the distance you will compete.

What Dmoran says...100%

 

[savagedasher]

Big difference between hitting a gong at 1000 yards and putting 5 shots inside of 3" at 1000 yards at almost every match...

None I never have seen a 3'' target or a perfect score of gong hits at 1000 at our range .
In fact I feel gong shooting takes more skill then 5 shot on paper . Gong shoots you get 5 shot then a half hour you get 5 more then another half hour you get the last 5. All this is done without any other practice.
Between practice it can be a half hour before you ever get your first shot off. I will buy the best steak dinner in the town to a shooter. Who can hit 15 gongs or show me 3 3'' target at our range. Wind and mirage dictate to where the bullet is going to go wind the bullet is going I would for you to post 3 targets the were shot after
after a half hour of practice shits.
Texas Road house is not far from the range. Larry

Idk, my hunting gun can hit the 10" gong at 1000 yards pretty consistently, but my load only groups about 7" for 3 shots at 1000.

Our gongs are 8'' . We shoot a total of 15 shots. and only 5 . But the total can be as much as 2 hour time frame without any sight in shots. That is like sighting for paper shoot at 9am and with no other practice you shoot for record at 11 am.
Or practice at 9 am and shoot first record at 9:30 the next record is at 10am . without any other Practice.
Also when shooting gongs you must water for the gong to stabilize . So with that in mind their is no chance of running your shot fast to take advantage of changing conditions. Larry