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Tuner question - How to adjust with temperature change .

borderghost

Border Ghost
Sure the answer to my question is in the forum someplace , finding it is the problem. Can i say that all tuners work on the same principle or close.
Question : If i tune my gun at 65 degrees , is there a rule of thumb that as the temperature goes up or down , can i turn my tuner in or out to get back into tune. As temp goes up do you turn the tuner in or out. or is every tuner different . I think a lot of us just set them and leave them. I would like to use the tuner instead of playing with powder charges if that is possible for the 6 ppc .
Thanks for looking .
 
I use an Ezell tuner. In my experience one has to test in a couple of different conditions over time to see how the load responds to increments/direction. However, in general if I have a lot more vertical than 'normal' and it is not explained by light/wind conditions but temperature is a lot warmer than when I developed the load, turning the tuner inward 1/2 to 1 increment can bring the vertical back down to baseline. I shoot F-class and cannot easily adjust the tuner and test during a match; I have to depend on data from previous experience to know which direction and magnitude to turn. This past weekend at a 1000yd match it was blazing hot and my load was having over 1 MOA of vertical and i was losing many points due to high/low shots with good windage calls. I made a 3/4 turn inward during sighter shots for the second match and I was able to get just over .5 moa vertical for the rest of the day. It made the difference between a really sucky match to a fun match where my lost points were due to missing a wind call instead of high and low '9's'.

Robin
 
Tim Singleton said:
Last match I attended I got so aggravated with the dang thing
Took it off won the next yardage

Just a little rant not productive or helpful, but anyway
Click to expand...
I think we have all been there with tuners, guess it is a learning curve that we have to go though , seems like there is more being used , hope it is not ( that guy won everything and he was using a tuner ) I believe they work just have to learn how they work.
 
borderghost said:
I think we have all been there with tuners, guess it is a learning curve that we have to go though , seems like there is more being used , hope it is not ( that guy won everything and he was using a tuner ) I believe they work just have to learn how they work.
Click to expand...
I havent given up just frustrating from time to time
I think to win you gotta have your seating depth spot on
If you're off on seating and out of tune and twisting the tuner the match is over and your still shooting big2s
You gotta have seating depth right to win the tuner cant over come that for you
 
Tim Singleton said:
I havent given up just frustrating from time to time
I think to win you gotta have your seating depth spot on
If you're off on seating and out of tune and twisting the tuner the match is over and your still shooting big2s
You gotta have seating depth right to win the tuner cant over come that for you
Click to expand...

Absolutely! My tuner won't make a crappy load shoot great. I have to have done my work and come to a great charge weight and a broad seating depth 'node'. Then I make tuner changes, if I have to, of up to one graduation (on an Ezell). If less than one graduation out or in won't bring it back in line then I did not have the load properly tuned in the first place. For clarity I tune mostly at 300yds for 600-1000yd matches for F-class.

Robin
 
There does not seem to me to be a simple pattern of ...weight in or weight out ... that applies to all barrels. As temperature causes velocity and barrel timing to change the tuner does make a difference, just as it did when you tuned that load. It would take some experimentation to see what works for each barrel you have.

When I have noticed a difference due to what I think is heat ( we get a lot of that here in South Florida) I get out the chronograph. For my BRA's I usually see velocity going from the BRA typical 2960's to 2980 fps or so. Then I drop the powder charge .1 gr or slightly more to get back to that 2960 fps range. I have and do turn the tuners also but have not really kept the barrels in that "positive compensation" range the great Alex Wheeler has detailed in his many writings on the subject.

Try slight tuner movements each way, test and see. If not, drop that powder charge and check with a chronograph.
 
rardoin said:
Absolutely! My tuner won't make a crappy load shoot great. I have to have done my work and come to a great charge weight and a broad seating depth 'node'. Then I make tuner changes, if I have to, of up to one graduation (on an Ezell). If less than one graduation out or in won't bring it back in line then I did not have the load properly tuned in the first place. For clarity I tune mostly at 300yds for 600-1000yd matches for F-class.

Robin
Click to expand...
In short range BR for the winners there is no broad seating depth
It has to be found testing .001 at a time to win.
off .001 one way or the other the other guy gotta screw up for you to beat him
 
Tim Singleton said:
In short range BR for the winners there is no broad seating depth
It has to be found testing .001 at a time to win.
off .001 one way or the other the other guy gotta screw up for you to beat him
Click to expand...

Yep, that is why I stated the game I am playing. Since we can't tune on site in F-class I have to find a seating depth that will be 3-5 thou' and will give .3 moa at 300yds. If my game was .1 MOA at 100-200 yds my loads would not pass muster. Although I usually don't have to make a tuner change in F-class I have done so on a couple occasions where it saved my bacon. Mostly I can leave it at my 'zero' point.

Robin
 
I've struggled before with my tuner but I can count those days easily on one hand, over the last 12 years of using one. One of those times was when there was a tornado in the area. We had 3/4+" hail and a tree went down, downrange taking down a power line.
Temp was stable but you could feel the low pressure and humidity. Hard to replicate that condition. The other two that I can recall were when reading the groups was hard to do in the conditions. I had one of those days at my last match on one of two rifles I was shooting. It has a very stiff 24"x 1.250 straight barrel and is in an aluminum stock. Both things that I believe contributed to the issue. That gun is hell when it's well but tunes a bit differently than any other rifle I've messed with. Biggest issue was seeing readable group size and shape. I can't seem to make it shoot big enough to print readable and predictable groups by which I adjust the tuner. The other rifle uses a more typical br contour barrel and tuned right up...predictably.

I think by far the most common mistakes made using a tuner are moving it too far and too often. I move mine 1 mark at a time and if I'm not positive that it's out of tune, I leave it alone. I might adjust it on the sighter but often go right back where I was before starting my record.

I don't see them being any different than changing loads at a match to tune with. It's just at your fingertips and a lot easier to move when you are likely better off leaving it alone. My rule of thumb is to only move the tuner when I would change the load, if I could.

FWIW, I haven't chased the lands in ages now. While it can make a big difference, I still see it as a means of changing bullet exit time and timing that to happen when the barrel is at its optimal spot to shoot small. That's exactly the same thing a tuner does.

Bottom line is, I would struggle a whole lot more without one.
 
You say for 6ppc
Are you shooting group or score?

You haven’t gotten a lot of responses yet but others will probably chime in
For short range group shooting to win you’ve gotta be pretty on top of the edge of the tune or your middle of the pack or lower
If you are loading in the upper hot end to make the gun shoot little dots when it goes out of tune too hot on the load the tuner won’t help you

Your alternative if you plan to use tuner for temperature changes thru the day you are forced to use a lighter load then use your tuner.
Which more times than not isn’t the winning recipe sometimes you have to swap from one powder to a different powder to be competitive
a tuner won’t help in that situation which believe it or not is pretty common

All that said to answer your question with a beyond the muzzle tuner in my experience I turn it in toward the breach as temp rise some times it will help

But if your load is to hot it won’t help enough to keep you at the top of the list
Tuners work for ppc group just tune your gun without it find the best seating depth to the .001 then put the tuner on and tune it in leave it alone IME
 
Last edited:
Tim Singleton said:
You say for 6ppc
Are you shooting group or score?

You haven’t gotten a lot of responses yet but others will probably chime in
For short range group shooting to win you’ve gotta be pretty on top of the edge of the tune or your middle of the pack or lower
If you are loading in the upper hot end to make the gun shoot little dots when it goes out of tune too hot on the load the tuner won’t help you

Your alternative if you plan to use tuner for temperature changes thru the day you are forced to use a lighter load then use your tuner.
Which more times than not isn’t the winning recipe sometimes you have to swap from one powder to a different powder to be competitive
a tuner won’t help in that situation which believe it or not is pretty common

All that said to answer your question with a beyond the muzzle tuner in my experience I turn it in toward the breach as temp rise some times it will help

But if your load is to hot it won’t help enough to keep you at the top of the list
Tuners work for ppc group just tune your gun without it find the best seating depth to the .001 then put the tuner on and tune it in leave it alone IME
Click to expand...

We were in perfect agreement every step of the way until the very last part. I will only say, do what works best for you. If you're good at keeping a rifle tuned with powder(s)/seating depth, the extra mass on the muzzle will only help. A tuner can do so much more.

I have to ask, Tim...Regardless of a tuner being on the gun, if you're load gets too hot, are you not forced to go down either way? I realize that seating depth can have the same effect but don't most people reduce the charge if the load gets too hot? I do agree that tuners won't fix that condition, where the load gets too hot and groups start blowing up.

IME, I can take my max summertime load and keep it shooting year round...you're in the same node. That doesn't necessarily work the other way around if, as you bring up, the load gets too hot it becomes untunable without reducing pressures. Is that not the same without a tuner? IME, it is. Bolt lift issues may or may not happen with or before this point but they have been close. My 30's will seemingly keep getting better to beyond that point and beyond wrecking brass. My 6's won't, before groups blow up. To me at least, that stands to reason due to the larger expansion area of the larger bore.
 
gunsandgunsmithing said:
I have to ask, Tim...Regardless of a tuner being on the gun, if you're load gets too hot, are you not forced to go down either way? I realize that seating depth can have the same effect but don't most people reduce the charge if the load gets too hot? .
Click to expand...
Yes, that has been my experience if the load is to hot you gotta reduce the load the tuner cant over come that.
Im just saying for group a lot of times you have to be loading in that upper window/velocity 3400 plus and adjust the load down as the targets and or cronograph are telling you to. IME the tuner alone isnt enough by itself in SRBR

There is a guy down in GA that does really well preloaded with his ppc and knows his tuner very well. He is tough to beat but its hard for him to get that load to work all the time over the course of 2 days
 
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