Tuner experience

[Greyfox]

I have been using tuners on short range benchrest rifles for eight or nine years. I started with a Shadetree and have used at least six different brands/designs since. IME-they all do the same thing, but some are easier to adjust and due to the weight and design seem to have a wider tune window. I currently have four of Mike Ezell's tuners and a couple of Borden's. I can't comment on long range as I never shoot longer than 300 yards. I will say that they work exactly the same at 300 as they do at 100 and I have no reason to think it would be any different at 600 or 1000. The physics are the same at distance. One thing I'll suggest and leave myself open to criticism is that long range shooters almost never appear to consider the affects of the wind at great distance. I well know that a 5 mph wind can move a .308 118gr bullet a full bullet hole in 100 yards. This must only increase with distance. No one has much to say about the wind currents that are always in play whether you can see them or not. Then, again no one seems to want to comment, you have the luck factor. Results must be repeatable to be valid. I can't figure out how one can reliably repeat results of tiny groups at great distances. There's the luck factor again coupled with the skill to shoot fast at the exact same spot.

I shoot matches in temps that will range from the 40's to the upper 90's over the course of seasons and days. I always go to the match preloaded and always with the same load. When the sight in period begins I will shoot one or two 3 shots groups and look for vertical. If there is some I adjust the tuner slightly, meaning a turn of 1/16" to 1/8" inch. and shoot another group. Usually this is enough. If I get no vertical from the first group I go ahead with the match which is what happens most of the time. 95% of the matches I shoot require no adjustment at all through the day. Occasionally if there is a dramatic temperature (30-40º) change I may have to use that slight adjustment. Tuners and learning to read the wind have been the two greatest factors in any improvements I have made in shooting over the past ten years.

YMMV,
Rick

 

[savagedasher]

Ok. I'm backing out and letting people with more experience carry this thread forward. 2 weeks ago I'd never tried a tuner. Now I have 1x experience, a lot of tuner knowledge gained through reading and advice of others, and a good understanding of the physics behind them. I think I've shared all that that limited knowledge can provide. One question has been asked that I want to know the answer to myself: If things change during a match can I adjust the tuner midmatch to compensate? I would say that would be possible if and only if you know what direction to go and know it with good certainty. So I'm going to write down some rules for myself such as which way the tuner will need to move if:

1. Temp goes up.
2. Temp goes down.
3. MV goes up.
4. MV goes down.

Not sure what else will effect the tuner position but I'll probably come up with more as I keep get more experience.

Chasing a node in a match using only a guess seems like a bad ideal. I'd want to have an expectation of success or I'd leave it alone.

A second concept that came up above is SD. My reloading skills are sometimes my weak point but this time my loads were very consistent and although I haven't pulled the data of the labradar yet I watched it during the match and I'm sure my SD was single digit, probably around 5. Keeping your SD low is a key to success with, or without, a tuner.

--Jerry

Jerry
I didn’t say SD ES is what I said
You can have low SD and it takes only one bullet to spoil the show .
After years of archery I knew you must tune short for a arrow to shoot long
Rim fire is no different
Rim fire your at the mercy of the bullet manufacturer . So you tune to a given load using a tuner .
Many will disagree But a tuner also put a bullet asleep . So also does tuneing a load .
I never have seen anything in shooting
That was special built for long range .
I can say in shooting long range at our club more shoots have been won with a savage using. A tuner then guns without . Two thing I know No amount of bullets you shoot will make the group get smaller the the second shot.
No way can a bullet shoot in the same spot at distance with speed difference.
Larry

 

[carlsbad]

Larry,
Thanks for the comments. Is that iambic pentameter? First sonnet I've seen on the forums.

--Jerry

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have been using tuners on short range benchrest rifles for eight or nine years. I started with a Shadetree and have used at least six different brands/designs since. IME-they all do the same thing, but some are easier to adjust and due to the weight and design seem to have a wider tune window. I currently have four of Mike Ezell's tuners and a couple of Borden's. I can't comment on long range as I never shoot longer than 300 yards. I will say that they work exactly the same at 300 as they do at 100 and I have no reason to think it would be any different at 600 or 1000. The physics are the same at distance. One thing I'll suggest and leave myself open to criticism is that long range shooters almost never appear to consider the affects of the wind at great distance. I well know that a 5 mph wind can move a .308 118gr bullet a full bullet hole in 100 yards. This must only increase with distance. No one has much to say about the wind currents that are always in play whether you can see them or not. Then, again no one seems to want to comment, you have the luck factor. Results must be repeatable to be valid. I can't figure out how one can reliably repeat results of tiny groups at great distances. There's the luck factor again coupled with the skill to shoot fast at the exact same spot.

I shoot matches in temps that will range from the 40's to the upper 90's over the course of seasons and days. I always go to the match preloaded and always with the same load. When the sight in period begins I will shoot one or two 3 shots groups and look for vertical. If there is some I adjust the tuner slightly, meaning a turn of 1/16" to 1/8" inch. and shoot another group. Usually this is enough. If I get no vertical from the first group I go ahead with the match which is what happens most of the time. 95% of the matches I shoot require no adjustment at all through the day. Occasionally if there is a dramatic temperature (30-40º) change I may have to use that slight adjustment. Tuners and learning to read the wind have been the two greatest factors in any improvements I have made in shooting over the past ten years.

YMMV,
Rick

Rick, wind and conditions always play a role. When you tune at long range is critical, conditions must be good. When I shoot a ladder test it will be about 4 different loads shot as one big group. It all happens fast before a condition changes. Its easy to see if the ladder is worth reading. There is so much to learn from them that you do not see up close. I like to see a tune come in and out in the ladder. I get to see both sides of the tune. It will also show me the width of the tune window. Usually the window is .1 gn, a great barrel may give you .2gn total window before the load starts to go vertical again. I will even tune my hunting rifles at 1k, because I have never been able to match the results I get any other way, but I keep trying. I just did a tune on a large 30 cal. The accuracy window at 1k is +/- .3gn in a case that takes 85 grains of powder. Thats about right given its case size. That window is more than double that size at short range, and knowing where to load inside of the window is what I cant figure out exactly without taking it to 1k.

 

[Greyfox]

Rick, wind and conditions always play a role. When you tune at long range is critical, conditions must be good. When I shoot a ladder test it will be about 4 different loads shot as one big group. It all happens fast before a condition changes. Its easy to see if the ladder is worth reading. There is so much to learn from them that you do not see up close. I like to see a tune come in and out in the ladder. I get to see both sides of the tune. It will also show me the width of the tune window. Usually the window is .1 gn, a great barrel may give you .2gn total window before the load starts to go vertical again. I will even tune my hunting rifles at 1k, because I have never been able to match the results I get any other way, but I keep trying. I just did a tune on a large 30 cal. The accuracy window at 1k is +/- .3gn in a case that takes 85 grains of powder. Thats about right given its case size. That window is more than double that size at short range, and knowing where to load inside of the window is what I cant figure out exactly without taking it to 1k.

Interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing.
Rick

 

[Silverfox]

I have no experience with tuners, but I do use suppressors on all of my varmint/predator rifles. Since it seems tuners are beneficial to accuracy, is there any way I can incorporate a tuner with my suppressor? I'm not looking for a bunch of extra weight on the end of the barrel, so maybe combining a suppressor and tuner is just a pipe dream. Would extremely thin space washers between the end of the barrel and where the suppressor threads up to the washer work? I'd appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I have no experience with tuners, but I do use suppressors on all of my varmint/predator rifles. Since it seems tuners are beneficial to accuracy, is there any way I can incorporate a tuner with my suppressor? I'm not looking for a bunch of extra weight on the end of the barrel, so maybe combining a suppressor and tuner is just a pipe dream. Would extremely thin space washers between the end of the barrel and where the suppressor threads up to the washer work? I'd appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks.

I don't think it's a pipe dream at all. Longer threads and a jamb nut is an off the cuff idea.

 

[savagedasher]

I have no experience with tuners, but I do use suppressors on all of my varmint/predator rifles. Since it seems tuners are beneficial to accuracy, is there any way I can incorporate a tuner with my suppressor? I'm not looking for a bunch of extra weight on the end of the barrel, so maybe combining a suppressor and tuner is just a pipe dream. Would extremely thin space washers between the end of the barrel and where the suppressor threads up to the washer work? I'd appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks.

Check RAS tuners we have one
Yes they do work with cans . Larry

 

[carlsbad]

I don't think it's a pipe dream at all. Longer threads and a jamb nut is an off the cuff idea.

You need a scale to make it user friendly. --Jerry

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

You need a scale to make it user friendly. --Jerry

What kind of scale, Jerry..on the barrel? As you know, it has well marked graduationso on the tuner. Just don't understand your comment. Please explain.


Please disregard as I read your post again and I see what your saying, I think. Yes, the suppressor would need a scale or graduations or some means. You could probably get by with a scribed line or mark on the suppressor and a scale on the barrel too.

 

[Silverfox]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I checked out the RAS tuner page and the RAS AR-15 Mk III has the 1/2 x 28 thread I have on the end of my barrels. However, I don't want a muzzle break and it looks like the RAS AR-15 Mk III is a combination brake and tuner???? What do I have to do to use the tuner and the suppressor at the same time??

Check RAS tuners we have one
Yes they do work with cans . Larry

 

[308BAR]

Who can I order a Ezell centerfire tuner from for 308win? Very intrigued with the results. PM welcomed.

 

[carlsbad]

Who can I order a Ezell centerfire tuner from for 308win? Very intrigued with the results. PM welcomed.

gunsandgunsmithing who is commenting in this thread. --Jerry

 

[ridgeway]

Harrell's makes a tuner brake and I believe Dale Woolum makes one now too...

 

[cdngary]

Do you have to change tuner settings for different yardages? I would think if the barrel vibrations are controlled by the tuner for 1 distance that there would be vertical at a farther distance, and the tuner would have to be changed to bring the poi to zero for that yardage.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Do you have to change tuner settings for different yardages? I would think if the barrel vibrations are controlled by the tuner for 1 distance that there would be vertical at a farther distance, and the tuner would have to be changed to bring the poi to zero for that yardage.

It'll be very close. From what I've seen, i'll generally be within 1 mark at 600 yards. That brings up "positive compensation." It will vary a little bit between guns as some guns get more compensation than others. Lots of factors here and it's a discussion for another time but, stock design, barrel stiffness, length, center of gravity..all come into play.

 

[R.Morehouse]

It'll be very close. From what I've seen, i'll generally be within 1 mark at 600 yards. That brings up "positive compensation." It will vary a little bit between guns as some guns get more compensation than others. Lots of factors here and it's a discussion for another time but, stock design, barrel stiffness, length, center of gravity..all come into play.

With Winter coming on i am really looking forward to another thread centered around that "Positive Compensation discussion for another time" Talking stock design, barrels, balance ect. ................

 

[Alex Wheeler]

With Winter coming on i am really looking forward to another thread centered around that "Positive Compensation discussion for another time" Talking stock design, barrels, balance ect. ................

Your gonna need to use the search function. I think we beat that horse to death.

 

[Tim Singleton]

I'll just add my .01cents cause that's about all it's worth
I'm a believer in tuners but again you have to spend the time finding the correct seating depth for each barrel then put on the tuner or you will be in the middle of the pack wondering what those guys at the top are doing

 

[JimPag]

I'll just add my .01cents cause that's about all it's worth
I'm a believer in tuners but again you have to spend the time finding the correct seating depth for each barrel then put on the tuner or you will be in the middle of the pack wondering what those guys at the top are doing

Tim. I've never had to find a correct seating depth and put the tuner on. All I've done is seat the bullet until the marks on the bullets are more square than long and adjust the tuner accordingly. 95% of the time I can find a sweet spot right away and if I can't I usually go up or down on the powder charge instead of the seating depth. The only time I will adjust the seating depth is when it stops shooting and the tuner doesn't seem to be helping, I'll seat it out about 3 thousands because of throat wear and it seems to come right back. Just my 2 cents of what's been working for me.