Tuner experience

[carlsbad]

Curious,
I started just off the lands. Now that I've shot a couple hundred rounds I'm probably .010 off. I've never had good luck tuning with COAL but as I said in my original post, I don't get to the range often.

Your results are consistent with mine and what Mike predicts except it isn't clear how you found the perfectly tuned position to start with. I'm guessing you did the tuning with seating depth. Once you are in the node, there is no improvement that a tuner can provide.

So I'll make a statement and see if Mike agrees: A tuner will not make your groups smaller than a perfectly tuned rifle...seems like a truism. So if you can find your tuning point with charge or seating depth, a tuner won't help.

I'm just glad that I could find mine in 21 shots. That is why I introduced my first post saying that I haven't really had time to tune my rifles the old fashioned way.

That said, the guy who told me to try Mike's tuners says he is a big fan because on that day when he shows up and his rifle isn't shooting the best, move the tuner 1/2 mark or so and bring it right back in. He said he went from an average finish at his local matches of 4th or 5th to generally winning. Hope that doesn't embarrass him.

So it sounds like you've got a way of tuning your rifle that works for you. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

--Jerry

 

[tn6br]

I've been accused of being bit by the "tuner bug" so I thought I'd post my experience.

I'm a traditionalist. I believe that generally things develop over decades or centuries with wisdom and there are advantages to the traditional wisdom not immediately visible to you, no matter how smart you are. So that is where I start. But I am also an innovator, always looking for a better or smarter way of doing things. It gets complicated.

It isn't easy for me to run to the range frequently for load development. I'm a single dad raising 2 kids who are now in high school. I can go to the garage and thread a barrel while they're doing homework but I can't run to the range. In fact, 1x/month is about what I get done and that is usually on the day of our varmint match. Traditional load development could take several months and what I find myself doing is guessing at the best load and going with that for the match.

Enter the tuner--a way to tune any load to match the frequency of the barrel. I know this isn't all there is to load development but it is a large part of it. The tuner allows me to take my best load and then adjust the rifle to match it, rather than vice versa.

Below are photos of my target used to dial in the tuner. I bought a PDT Tuner from Ezell Precision Rifles (gunsandgunsmithing on the forum) and installed it. I loaded up a load that I thought would give me about 2950 fps and went to the range. I chose setting 20 to start because it was about 1/2 turn from the stop and a round number. As you can see the group got a little tighter at 21, real tight at 22, still tight at 23, and then opened up again at 24. approximate group sizes as follows (3 shot groups):

20 .390
21 .380
22 .196
23 .204
24 .355
22 .186 (confirmation group after choosing this setting)

Rifle shot great for the match. Bad windreading at 600 yards cost me the match. CharlieYankeeSierra won the match with a great score of 46/50. But I was very happy with the rifle.

So I have a 223 and a 308 that aren't as tight as i want them. They will likely get tuners soon.
--Jerry
View attachment 1025782 View attachment 1025783 View attachment 1025784

Glad you like it i love mine. Hard to shoot a rifle without one.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Carlsbad,

Did you just pick a random seating depth for this load?

Did you then do any further seating depth optimisation?

I have made my own tuners in the past and seeing the way that moving them only 0.001" at a time can visibly shrink the groups is impressive but ultimately I never ended up with a better shooting rifle than I already had. My regular method of finding an OCW then tuning the seating depth has always delivered results just as good.

I fitted a tuner which I locked against the shoulder and ran an OCW test, I then tuned the seating depth to give me 5 shot groups in the low 0.2s (its a 600 & 1000yd BR gun shooting boat tails) as I adjusted the tuner over say a 10 thou range of 1 thou increments all it did was take my load out of tune and then bring it back in again to the same level of accuracy. This would happen time after time, accurate nodes would come and go as Mike described but none were really any better than another. I concluded from this that tuner doesn't make a rifle more accurate. It might get you a load to use faster but that load may not be as stable and might well need tuning again.

I would still like to find some improvements with a tuner but when the gun is winning comps its hard to tinker with a winning combination.

Im glad to see your a convert, sadly Im still very much a fence sitter

If you expect a tuner to make a perfectly tuned rifle, more perfectly tuned, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. They do two things. One is they widen tune windows. The other is they allow you to maintain peak tune by just barely nudging the tuner, when, not if, the gun goes out of tune. All guns/loads go out...some more and more frequently than others. A tuner addresses both of those aspects but they don't make a perfectly in tune rifle shoot a single group better. They do however, make them agg better.

 

[Curious]

Curious,
I started just off the lands. Now that I've shot a couple hundred rounds I'm probably .010 off. I've never had good luck tuning with COAL but as I said in my original post, I don't get to the range often.

Your results are consistent with mine and what Mike predicts except it isn't clear how you found the perfectly tuned position to start with. I'm guessing you did the tuning with seating depth. Once you are in the node, there is no improvement that a tuner can provide.

So I'll make a statement and see if Mike agrees: A tuner will not make your groups smaller than a perfectly tuned rifle...seems like a truism. So if you can find your tuning point with charge or seating depth, a tuner won't help.

I'm just glad that I could find mine in 21 shots. That is why I introduced my first post saying that I haven't really had time to tune my rifles the old fashioned way.

That said, the guy who told me to try Mike's tuners says he is a big fan because on that day when he shows up and his rifle isn't shooting the best, move the tuner 1/2 mark or so and bring it right back in. He said he went from an average finish at his local matches of 4th or 5th to generally winning. Hope that doesn't embarrass him.

So it sounds like you've got a way of tuning your rifle that works for you. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

--Jerry

I fixed the tuner to a position then developed the load with powder and seating depth changes, as such it was tuned before any movements of the tuner Jerry. As soon as I moved the tuner it was taking the rifle out of tune, move it enough and it brings it back into tune.

What I'm seeing is the same as you but as Mike has pointed out Ive done all the hard work so the tuner isn't having any effect.

 

[Curious]

If you expect a tuner to make a perfectly tuned rifle, more perfectly tuned, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. They do two things. One is they widen tune windows. The other is they allow you to maintain peak tune by just barely nudging the tuner, when, not if, the gun goes out of tune. All guns/loads go out...some more and more frequently than others. A tuner addresses both of those aspects but they don't make a perfectly in tune rifle shoot a single group better. They do however, make them agg better.

My interest in the tuner comes from wanting to use it on a 600 & 1000yd benchrest rifle, as you know we dont really get a chance to see if the rifle is still in tune before a competition starts and when it does there is no time for adjustments. I can see how a tuner is useful at 100yd benches when you can play with it before and even during a match.

Can I ask how you determine that a tuner will make a perfectly tuned rifle agg better? are you talking about a match agg or a season agg and is this more relative to 100yd bench than 1000yd?

 

[Marksman63]

I think a tuner will allow you to keep your barrel tuned according the temperature’s changes when you cannot tune your load. Experience and many tests would address your adjustments in the field

 

[savagedasher]

Tuners has change my way of reloading .
For a tuner to to do its job you need a load to have very low ES .
You need case capacity as near the same as possible . Primer that let you get constant ignition . I have found if you yes a bullet that works with jump is best . Seating depth is the best way to stabilize ES
Dasher is easy to keep the Es 5 or under . A few shot and you going to where the sweet spot is in Es .
I like to start my tune To when the barrel wears the velocity don’t change.
Hybrid is foun from .020 to .035 off a soft touch
Your going to find 4 tunes in every tune
If the tuner is working
correct .
Tuneing is done with two shot at 100 .
Target needs to be. + ++ with the scope cross on the + on target . And the bullet close to the + Shoot 2 and mark remember what was the first shot
The target will have. Horizontal or. Vertical or both . Make a very fine adjustment . And shoot two more . Your going to see bullet direction has change and it can be bigger or smaller . But your also going to see the distance from the point of has changed also. Make another small movement . Your going to see the pattern Change along with distance from the point of aim . 4 to6 two shot targets your going to a tune above the point of aim and one below
The low seem to work better in head winds . Numbers or marks don’t mean much . RAS tuners Have thread 35% finer then others .
I feel for a tuner to work best you need the most perfect reloads . Math Will tell you Low Es should shoot best with least vertical .
Many of tuners aren’t adjustable without
Loosing To turn .
Best example I can give we were shooting 600 yd practice
I had 3 targets 2 1/2” I ask permission to chang the tuner the target I changed on was 1.38 4 was in the .600 range .
I will never load another gun the old fashion way. The gun was shooting good enough to win score The tune I had adjusted into raise the impact 1 1/“
Lost score by one . Larry

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

My interest in the tuner comes from wanting to use it on a 600 & 1000yd benchrest rifle, as you know we dont really get a chance to see if the rifle is still in tune before a competition starts and when it does there is no time for adjustments. I can see how a tuner is useful at 100yd benches when you can play with it before and even during a match.

Can I ask how you determine that a tuner will make a perfectly tuned rifle agg better? are you talking about a match agg or a season agg and is this more relative to 100yd bench than 1000yd?

Long range, or any game where you either don't have, or can't see you sighters, does make it harder to tune but it's the same case for tuning with powder charge and seating depth.

Tuners help agging ability by widening the tune window and by giving you a tool that you can use to maintain peak tune throughout condition changes...just like changing the load over the course of the day does.

If your gun never loses its peak tune, a tuner won't help much but I've never seen a gun/load that is unaffected by temps. With some, it's more apparent than in others but they all go out.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

My personal experience with tuners has not shown a wider tune with the 28-30" barrels we use for long range BR. The short barrels used at 100yds must react differently to the muzzle mass. So far as I know all tuner development has been done at short range. I also do not believe you will take a load and bring it in as well if you dont tune first. Theres more to a good load than being in the node. I think tuners are interesting and guys should try them and form their own opinions, but I recommend you try them once your experienced with tuning properly.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

My personal experience with tuners has not shown a wider tune with the 28-30" barrels we use for long range BR. The short barrels used at 100yds must react differently to the muzzle mass. So far as I know all tuner development has been done at short range. I also do not believe you will take a load and bring it in as well if you dont tune first. Theres more to a good load than being in the node. I think tuners are interesting and guys should try them and form their own opinions, but I recommend you try them once your experienced with tuning properly.

Log range, short range, rf and even air rifle...long barrel or short...the way the barrels respond is all physics and the gun doesn't know what cartridge or how far it's shooting, but I do agree that load development is still necessary if you want to extract all the gun has in it.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Log range, short range, rf and even air rifle...long barrel or short...the way the barrels respond is all physics and the gun doesn't know what cartridge or how far it's shooting, but I do agree that load development is still necessary if you want to extract all the gun has in it.

The way you build a rifle for LR positive compensation is very different in how you build a sr rifle. The whole dynamic we are trying to achieve is different. So the way a mass on the end of a muzzle effects frequency and amplitude of a vibration remains similar, that does not mean it will benefit the LR rifle in the same way it does a SR rifle. Those flat wide tunes at 100 dont exist at 1k. We need a certain vertical muzzle trajectory and velocity to get that perfect 1k tune, and so far, IMO, a tuner has not yet been developed to help us.

 

[Medic505]

So far as I know all tuner development has been done at short range.

Please explain this statement.

The whole dynamic we are trying to achieve is different.

Huh?

a tuner has not yet been developed to help us.

And while you're at it, shed some light on this one.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Please explain this statement.

Huh?

And while you're at it, shed some light on this one.

1. Testing is done to develop and design new products. All tuners that I know have reached their current designs from short range testing and development.
2. Positive compensation, search this site. If you want to build a rifle to exploit it at long range, that rifle will be quite different than a 100yd rifle.
3. Back to #1, I do not know of a tuner developed specifically at long range on a long range rifle.

 

[ridgeway]

I've been using a tuner at 1K for a couple years with very good success...most likely every barrel I shoot, long and short will wear a tuner. I look at it as another tool in the toolbox, lol.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I've been using a tuner at 1K for a couple years with very good success...most likely every barrel I shoot, long and short will wear a tuner. I look at it as another tool in the toolbox, lol.

You are not alone. There are many long range shooters using them and they have won nationally and worldwide, on the biggest stages.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

They do work as Carl descried at long range, as far as taking the load in and out of tune. However they do not make the tune wider in any of the experiences I have had with them. One of my best dasher barrels got one half way through it's life. I had a lot of data before and after.

 

[ridgeway]

What I like, it seems like I can shoot the same load in larger temperature/weather changes. I am pretty much a die hard R15 fan, lol. Another factor that comes into play is, A GOOD BARREL.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

What I like, it seems like I can shoot the same load in larger temperature/weather changes. I am pretty much a die hard R15 fan, lol. Another factor that comes into play is, A GOOD BARREL.

Yes, a good barrel will give a wider tune than anything else. I do plan to explore tuners more if I get the free time. I think they could be built in a way to help at 1k, and maybe some do that. I can only speak for the ones I have personal experience with. But most on the market have a very similar design.

 

[carlsbad]

Ok. I'm backing out and letting people with more experience carry this thread forward. 2 weeks ago I'd never tried a tuner. Now I have 1x experience, a lot of tuner knowledge gained through reading and advice of others, and a good understanding of the physics behind them. I think I've shared all that that limited knowledge can provide. One question has been asked that I want to know the answer to myself: If things change during a match can I adjust the tuner midmatch to compensate? I would say that would be possible if and only if you know what direction to go and know it with good certainty. So I'm going to write down some rules for myself such as which way the tuner will need to move if:

1. Temp goes up.
2. Temp goes down.
3. MV goes up.
4. MV goes down.

Not sure what else will effect the tuner position but I'll probably come up with more as I keep get more experience.

Chasing a node in a match using only a guess seems like a bad ideal. I'd want to have an expectation of success or I'd leave it alone.

A second concept that came up above is SD. My reloading skills are sometimes my weak point but this time my loads were very consistent and although I haven't pulled the data of the labradar yet I watched it during the match and I'm sure my SD was single digit, probably around 5. Keeping your SD low is a key to success with, or without, a tuner.

--Jerry

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Ok. I'm backing out and letting people with more experience carry this thread forward. 2 weeks ago I'd never tried a tuner. Now I have 1x experience, a lot of tuner knowledge gained through reading and advice of others, and a good understanding of the physics behind them. I think I've shared all that that limited knowledge can provide. One question has been asked that I want to know the answer to myself: If things change during a match can I adjust the tuner midmatch to compensate? I would say that would be possible if and only if you know what direction to go and know it with good certainty. So I'm going to write down some rules for myself such as which way the tuner will need to move if:

1. Temp goes up.
2. Temp goes down.
3. MV goes up.
4. MV goes down.

Not sure what else will effect the tuner position but I'll probably come up with more as I keep get more experience.

Chasing a node in a match using only a guess seems like a bad ideal. I'd want to have an expectation of success or I'd leave it alone.

A second concept that came up above is SD. My reloading skills are sometimes my weak point but this time my loads were very consistent and although I haven't pulled the data of the labradar yet I watched it during the match and I'm sure my SD was single digit, probably around 5. Keeping your SD low is a key to success with, or without, a tuner.

--Jerry

It's about timing bullet exit with optimal muzzle position. As Temps go up, speeds typically do as well. So, the bullet is reaching the muzzle sooner and we want to speed the barrel up. The way to do this is shorten it so that the frequency is higher. So, as Temps go up move the tuner in. As Temps go down move the tuner out.

Yes, you can move it during a match but sighters are a big help, as are good notes. I'll follow up on this later.