To use, or not to use the expander ball in a Redding bushing die
- Thread starter Campbell
- Start date
DennisH
Life Time NRA member
Seating/bearing surface consistency.
Simply , do your own test. Load 20 of each. With and without expander. Shoot 4-5 shot groups of each. Measure.
Compare difference in neck tension when bullet seating. What method seems to make constant pressure? Dont forget to lube the ID of neck on both. Do use a brush to clean the necks. Both bullet and expander need lnside lubed necks.
Just a good reason to do more shooting..
Compare difference in neck tension when bullet seating. What method seems to make constant pressure? Dont forget to lube the ID of neck on both. Do use a brush to clean the necks. Both bullet and expander need lnside lubed necks.
Just a good reason to do more shooting..
Use a precision expander mandrel to achieve your desired neck tension.
Since you control neck thickness by turning and decap prior to sizing you can remove the stem.
I decap all cases prior to cleaning and sizing. I have three universal decapping dies but my brother just started reloading for .338 Lapua Magnum and the case is too large. We went to Cabela's and they had two brands of universal decapping dies that also looked too small and a Hornady die that looked large enough but we couldn't measure it while inside the package. Right next to it was a Frankfort Arsenal decapping tool that said "up to .338." He bought that and it worked slicker than snot! So well that I went the next day and bought the last one on the rack.
I use the sizing button only because I don't have the equipment to control neck thickness by turning. If I had that capability, I'd probably lose the button just to reduce working the brass.
dcali
Bullet Maker
If the expander, bushing and neck thickness are all exactly right, the expander will not do any harm, and it will help knock out any dings. This happened with a 6XC I had. I didn’t do it on purpose, but the expander wound up being just about zero clearance with a sized neck, and it worked well. I wouldn’t bother with it unless you ding the crap out of your cases. In games like f class and benchrest, you just don’t abuse your brass like that and you don’t need it.
PS. My dies can decap without the expander. Is that not the case anymore?you just unscrew it and replace it with the included pin retainer without the expander.
PS. My dies can decap without the expander. Is that not the case anymore?you just unscrew it and replace it with the included pin retainer without the expander.
Separate step using a universal decapping die.
fatelvis
Silver $$ Contributor
Because I don't like doing additional steps, I use a bushing (or honed sizer) very close to my desired pre-seat outside diameter. Then use an expander ball and deprimer pin to size normally. I will feel very little resistance as the expander pulls through the neck. I like the fact that the expander is making all the I.D.s of the necks the same, and cannot see that little resistance doing harm. By the way, I use Lapua and Peterson brass, but I do not neck turn.
No way that ball is pulling
I agree 100 % ,no way a shoulder is getting pulled .
I don't want to make things more confusing but I'll add my 2 cents . I'm shooting 308 benchrest only , I tried the Redding S Type bushing dies to adjust neck tension , didn't work out for me , runout was average .004 only do to I don't neck turn . When neck turning making neck thickness the same and using the correct bushing for neck tension there is no need for the expander ball . In my case with neck thickness being off I found the standard RCBS Full Length die with the expander works fine , runout is average .001 I lube the inside of the necks makes very little resistance as the ball passes through . The ball only contacts the neck when the ball is going up , the neck isn't sized yet when it's going on the down stroke no contact is made . Your neck thickness of .0135 x 2 pluss 308 I would go with a .333 bushing for .002 neck tension as an example. No need for ball or mandrel in your case . Then it's up to you to shoot straight ,
There is a reason why Redding puts a expander in with their bushing dies.
And Whidden custom dies sells expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter. Meaning expanders are not the end of the world, especially if you polish the expander and lube the inside of the case neck.
Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Bushing Selection
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/140-bushing-selection
If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter.
Below a closeup macro photo of a new RCBS expander.
And below a Redding carbide expander kit.
Bottom line, if you have a off the shelf factory rifle you have no control over how much the neck expands when fired. And Redding tells you if reducing the neck diameter .004 or more you can induce neck runout. And why redding tells you to size the neck in two steps to help reduce neck runout when using a floating bushing.
And Whidden custom dies sells expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter. Meaning expanders are not the end of the world, especially if you polish the expander and lube the inside of the case neck.
Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Bushing Selection
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/140-bushing-selection
If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter.
Below a closeup macro photo of a new RCBS expander.
And below a Redding carbide expander kit.
Bottom line, if you have a off the shelf factory rifle you have no control over how much the neck expands when fired. And Redding tells you if reducing the neck diameter .004 or more you can induce neck runout. And why redding tells you to size the neck in two steps to help reduce neck runout when using a floating bushing.
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That is if wall thickness is off Canpbell is neck turning to .0135 OD and ID will be true only .027 smaller why work the brass any more then it has to for no reason , using the proper bushing winding up with the ID giving the neck tension desired . With a chamfered neck they should seat smooth . I'm not taking the time in neck turning so I do use the ball I must have a old style ball or it smoohed out over time , doesn't look any way as rough as pictured more like the carbide ball in smoothness .
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
For cases with unturned necks you can pick a bushing that only has the expander ball doing about a thousandth or so of expansion and by using it, the IDs of the sized necks will be more uniform. With that little expansion, using Imperial Dry Neck Lube, the pull on the neck will not be enough to cause concentricity problems. This is not conjecture. I have done it. If you want different neck tension than the stock expander gives you Whidden sells them in a selection of diameters. Of course you may have to adjust your bushing size accordingly.
I have read a post that I agree with. New brass, size the neck down with a bushing enough smaller than your sizing mandrel to make sure it will push the brass to the outside of the neck in a uniform way, then turn the brass and you end up with very uniform neck thickness, and less chance of concentricity issues. Now you have no reason to use an expansion button. Just use the bushing to get uniform tension.
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BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
It seems that you are agreeing with something that I did not say. 
I have never seen the need to turn necks for my field (varmint rifles) and I have been able to get them to shoot just fine thank you. I reserve neck turning for tight neck chambers. Another way to go with unturned necks, that works very well, is a two step process using a collet die and doing the bump and body with a body die or a bushing FL die with the bushing removed. Neck tension is adjusted by reducing the size of the mandrel, or ordering smaller ones. Generally for varmint calibers I want five shots that are comfortably below a half inch, a little smaller with the smaller cases, like the .222. Given the limitations of the bullets that I use, I think that asking more is just wearing out your barrel. One of the best moves that I made, a long time back, was to have separate rifles for the field and for target shooting.
I have never seen the need to turn necks for my field (varmint rifles) and I have been able to get them to shoot just fine thank you. I reserve neck turning for tight neck chambers. Another way to go with unturned necks, that works very well, is a two step process using a collet die and doing the bump and body with a body die or a bushing FL die with the bushing removed. Neck tension is adjusted by reducing the size of the mandrel, or ordering smaller ones. Generally for varmint calibers I want five shots that are comfortably below a half inch, a little smaller with the smaller cases, like the .222. Given the limitations of the bullets that I use, I think that asking more is just wearing out your barrel. One of the best moves that I made, a long time back, was to have separate rifles for the field and for target shooting.
Deleted old_dood
like the video above I use a 6BR Forster FL non bushing die which they honed to .2655. Neck turned Lapua brass to .012 wall thickness. The expander, which is .242", expands the neck .0005". My runout is .001 or less using a Wilson seater.
This is pretty much my experience using Forster dies that are honed, less than .003” brass movement for the whole sizing process and less than .001” runout using Forster BR Micrometer seaters.
Cheers.
well i have used them all i believe. you can load quality ammo with just about all these techniques. Whatever works for you!
this is a precision shooting forum. using benchrest techniques with a factory rifle is just a waste of time and money.
you can load perfectly good ammo with a set of forster dies. use the expander ball. use imperial sizing wax on the case body and imperial dry neck lube inside the neck. best factory dies out there. have it honed if you want to work your brass less but make sure you know what size you want it honed at.
lots of people swear by the lee collet die and a body die. i use them sometimes. they work very well.
i have both redding and forster. i prefer forster
i have the whidden full length sizing die with the expander ball kit. even John Whidden says you can load straighter ammo with the non bushing full length sizing die. i have had very good results with both concentricity and controlling neck tension with this die. Whidden will hone this die too.
if you want the best results posible and want to eliminate overworking your brass then you want to send your fireformed brass off for a custom full length sizing die matched to your chamber.
now on my bench guns i use a harrell bushing die selected from my fired brass. for final fine tuning of neck tension i use a set of K&M expander mandrels in 0.0005 increments. but you only need to go there when you have a rifle shooting in the 2's and wanting to shave another tenth.
for seating bullets it is hard to beat the forster seater. that said i have just about changed over everything to wilson.
this is a precision shooting forum. using benchrest techniques with a factory rifle is just a waste of time and money.
you can load perfectly good ammo with a set of forster dies. use the expander ball. use imperial sizing wax on the case body and imperial dry neck lube inside the neck. best factory dies out there. have it honed if you want to work your brass less but make sure you know what size you want it honed at.
lots of people swear by the lee collet die and a body die. i use them sometimes. they work very well.
i have both redding and forster. i prefer forster
i have the whidden full length sizing die with the expander ball kit. even John Whidden says you can load straighter ammo with the non bushing full length sizing die. i have had very good results with both concentricity and controlling neck tension with this die. Whidden will hone this die too.
if you want the best results posible and want to eliminate overworking your brass then you want to send your fireformed brass off for a custom full length sizing die matched to your chamber.
now on my bench guns i use a harrell bushing die selected from my fired brass. for final fine tuning of neck tension i use a set of K&M expander mandrels in 0.0005 increments. but you only need to go there when you have a rifle shooting in the 2's and wanting to shave another tenth.
for seating bullets it is hard to beat the forster seater. that said i have just about changed over everything to wilson.
I’ve had no runout issues at all with a Forster custom die with the expander ball. I lube the inside of the necks before sizing. I guarantee there’s no shoulder pulling, and the brass isn’t being overworked. Now if you don’t anneal -all bets are off after the 3rd or 4th firing (as far as work hardening your brass). My personal experience - YMMV
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