the expander ball in a redding type s fl bushing die?

[Canadian bushman]

I always take the lock nut off my expander stem and just let it float

 

[lpreddick]

thanks for the above info. i suspect pulling the above expander and the carbide one i'v installed in my 6x45 fl die distorts the neck and is the main reason for excessive runout noted in the 6x45 loaded rounds. last night i compared runout of rounds of 6x45 whose neck was sized with the neck expander ball and rounds loaded after fl sizing then expanding the neck with a wilson expander mandrel. the diameter of the expander ball and wilson mandrel are identical, so internal diameter is the same. my early impression is that runout is less when necks are expanded with the mandrel. today i'll evaluate the 22 BR necks and runout using the correct bushing with and without pulling the expander ball through the neck. since my brass is unturned there is an increase in neck thickness toward the shoulder and i can see how some form of neck expansion is uniforming the internal diameter. i can also see how my flat based bullets, with their pressure ring, inserted into a bushing only necked case risks runout problems the deeper the bullet is seated. it looks like i can choose (1) neck turn/bushing or (2) no turn/mandrel expansion.

 

[artbosco]

Unturned necks do not have their neck thickness runout improved by any number of firings. When unturned necks are inserted in the ID of a die or bushing, the irregularities in their thicknesses make their IDs irregular, and their shapes and dimensions inconsistent. This results in variation in the force that it takes to seat bullets, which is known to increase the extreme spread of velocities, which increases vertical dispersion, reducing overall accuracy. That dies which are made pretty much for the target shooting market, for use with turned necks do not have expanders says noting about their suitability for applications where necks are not turned. Have you loaded ammunition using cases with unturned necks using bushing dies?

That's the best endorsement I've heard for always neck turning followed by full length sizing with a f/l bushing die sans the expander ball, for the least amount of run out. And, for moving from a factory chamber to either a minimum or tight-neck chamber. Shilen seems to be the most accommodating in that regard: http://www.shilen.com/chambers.html

 

[BoydAllen]

Last night I did a little experimenting as I tried out a new neck turner that I will be reviewing (a PMA...really good)

Starting out with new sets of Lee 234 FL and Collet dies, I went through various trials that eventually resulted in a dummy round that had .001 TIR well out on the bullet, where the shank met the ogive.

To get there, and for the major improvment, I had polished the expander ball to a mirror shine with 600 and 1500 grit wet or dry.

I had taken a clean up cut on the neck that left it .0142 thick (Winchester brass, thicker than my Lapua), and my final steps had been to do multiple short stroking (short of the expander) turning the case about 45 degrees each time, when FL sizing, and doing the same when seating the bullet with the Collet set's Dead Length seater.

There was one more thing. I lined the ID of the opening of the seater, about a quarter inch into the die, with blue painters tape, with a butt joint at the ends,to reduce the clearance of the case in the die.

All in all the experiment was a great success. Of course I lubed the inside of the neck when sizing, and removed the lube before seating. I think that this shows the potential for tuning and technique to have a great effect on results. Before I had done anything to the brass or die, even with lube in the neck, the rough finish of the leading edge of the expander had caused so much pull that sized brass measured .007 TIR at the end of the case neck.

The reason that I was working with the FL die was that the Collet die was not making necks small enough so that they would be properly expanded up for turning. In the process of all of this, I sized some with no expander ball, and expanded them back up, and while this was much superior to the unmodified die, my final results with all the bells and whistles were the best.

As a general rule, if you are forced to use a one piece FL die, that has too small of an ID in its neck, to size unturned cases, pulling the decapping stem and using an expander die and mandrel will give much superior results as far as runout.

One last detail on my dummy round, it has a smidge over .002 neck tension, which is what I was looking for. The rifle is for field work, and rounds will be fed from the magazine.

 

[DLCrocket]

In search of the best concentricity possible I dump the neck sizing button and use a bushing that sizes necks where I want them. I finish up with an inside mandrel to make sure there's no irregularity when the case leaves the neck sizing die. The mandrel is sized .001 under bullet diameter so that if it contacts the neck walls at all it is so slight that overworking the brass is not an issue.

Trying to follow what everyone is saying about the use of the exander ball. Been doing "basic" reloading for awhile but new to really paying attention to all aspects of brass prep. I'd appreciate any feedback on what I'm doing with new .243 Win brass:
1. Anneal
2. Full length size using neck bushing, no expander ball (not really sure I need bushing at this point)
3. Trim to length
4. Chamfer
5. Expand necks w/ K&M mandrel so they fit on turning pilot (mandrel is 0.243)
6. Turn necks
Now, if my math is correct, the case neck O.D. will be about 0.0271, assuming turning removed no more than 0.0005". My chosen die bushing is 0.270 so looks like i would need to run cases through bushing once more to get 0.002" neck tension.
How am I doing?

 

[Webster]

Trying to follow what everyone is saying about the use of the exander ball. Been doing "basic" reloading for awhile but new to really paying attention to all aspects of brass prep. I'd appreciate any feedback on what I'm doing with new .243 Win brass:
1. Anneal
2. Full length size using neck bushing, no expander ball (not really sure I need bushing at this point)
3. Trim to length
4. Chamfer
5. Expand necks w/ K&M mandrel so they fit on turning pilot (mandrel is 0.243)
6. Turn necks
Now, if my math is correct, the case neck O.D. will be about 0.0271, assuming turning removed no more than 0.0005". My chosen die bushing is 0.270 so looks like i would need to run cases through bushing once more to get 0.002" neck tension.
How am I doing?

Sorry the original post is old.

Sounds like you’re doing a good job. Reading post on this website it sounds like everyone thinks they will shoot small groups with any rifle if they tinker with reloads. They usually have a crummy factory barrel and they never mention having any understanding of bench manners. I made my groups smaller by paying attention to bench techniques. Ground hogs don't know the difference between a 1/4" group and a 3/4" group.

It's a diameter change, not really related to how much tension it creates gripping the bullet. Like someone else said the grip is determined by the degree of work hardening and the diameter change. Every case is a little different as far as neck hardness. Erik Cortina uses a mandrel. Sounds more precise than jerking a ball thru the neck. If your real fussy about tension repeatability you should anneal so the case necks are closer to the same hardness.

Look at Erik Cortina's video on annealing then measuring measuring bullet seating force. Ir's an eye opener.

My rifles are accurate enough without weighing cases or primers. Don't measure case volume, Don't sort bullets or measure runout. I turn, anneal, bushing die no expander ball. A good barrel solves a lot of problems.

 

[L.Sherm]

I encourage you to try sizing bushing only no mandrel or expander especially on neck turned brass ive had excellent results with unturned Lapua and ADG. Not saying mandrels don't work well its just worth test just bushings, I know when I started doing it it improved my stuff.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

"My rifles are accurate enough without weighing cases or primers. Don't measure case volume, Don't sort bullets or measure runout. I turn, anneal, bushing die no expander ball. A good barrel solves a lot of problems."

Yes! Mandrels are useful though - I always use them on new brass to open up the neck initially. Most seem to be on he tight side - I always anneal and FL size new brass.

 

[DLCrocket]

Sorry the original post is old.

Sounds like you’re doing a good job. Reading post on this website it sounds like everyone thinks they will shoot small groups with any rifle if they tinker with reloads. They usually have a crummy factory barrel and they never mention having any understanding of bench manners. I made my groups smaller by paying attention to bench techniques. Ground hogs don't know the difference between a 1/4" group and a 3/4" group.

It's a diameter change, not really related to how much tension it creates gripping the bullet. Like someone else said the grip is determined by the degree of work hardening and the diameter change. Every case is a little different as far as neck hardness. Erik Cortina uses a mandrel. Sounds more precise than jerking a ball thru the neck. If your real fussy about tension repeatability you should anneal so the case necks are closer to the same hardness.

Look at Erik Cortina's video on annealing then measuring measuring bullet seating force. Ir's an eye opener.

My rifles are accurate enough without weighing cases or primers. Don't measure case volume, Don't sort bullets or measure runout. I turn, anneal, bushing die no expander ball. A good barrel solves a lot of problems.

Funny, i meant to search for posts in 2024. I must have hit the 1 instead of the 2. I've seen Erik's video on annealing. Ive recently begun annealing and found the sizing die works much better. The only reason I use a mandrel is otherwise cases won't fit on the turning pilot. I'd be interested in hearing more about bench techniques. Thanks for the input.

 

[BoydAllen]

You learn something new as far as giving advice.If it were fired brass it would likely be better without unless it pushes the indiscrepency inside without an expander. Boyd do you polish yours down for light contact or leave them as the factory made them.

I choose a bushing with a suitable ID, so that it gives that effect.