Tips for using the stripped bolt method for seating depth.

[Alex Wheeler]

I want to share two tips to help you get better results with the stripped bolt method of finding your touch point. The whole idea is to have a bolt close/open with no resistance so that when your seating the bullet deeper in the case the only thing causing any feel on the bolt is the bullet/land relationship. Any other interference will effect how the bolt feels. 2 common issues are runout and extractors. If you have runout in the dummy round the bullet will drag against the side of the freebore and skew the results. A concentrity gauge will tell you if this is a problem. Straighter the better. The other problem is extractors that apply side force on the base of the case. Defiance is a big one here, their mini16 cut is deep and will put side pressure on the case. I put a piece of tape on the bottom of the extractor to hold it up enough to eliminate that. Either of these two issues will cause you to never get rid of the slight click at the top of bolt lift.

 

[KWeigel]

I want to share two tips to help you get better results with the stripped bolt method of finding your touch point. The whole idea is to have a bolt close/open with no resistance so that when your seating the bullet deeper in the case the only thing causing any feel on the bolt is the bullet/land relationship. Any other interference will effect how the bolt feels. 2 common issues are runout and extractors. If you have runout in the dummy round the bullet will drag against the side of the freebore and skew the results. A concentrity gauge will tell you if this is a problem. Straighter the better. The other problem is extractors that apply side force on the base of the case. Defiance is a big one here, their mini16 cut is deep and will put side pressure on the case. I put a piece of tape on the bottom of the extractor to hold it up enough to eliminate that. Either of these two issues will cause you to never get rid of the slight click at the top of bolt lift.

I would like to add that if you index your cartridge and put it into the bolt in the identical location each time it helps with small degrees of runout. Love this method!

 

[Stan Taylor]

Thanks Alex I didn't know that.

 

[Urv]

I want to share two tips to help you get better results with the stripped bolt method of finding your touch point. The whole idea is to have a bolt close/open with no resistance so that when your seating the bullet deeper in the case the only thing causing any feel on the bolt is the bullet/land relationship. Any other interference will effect how the bolt feels. 2 common issues are runout and extractors. If you have runout in the dummy round the bullet will drag against the side of the freebore and skew the results. A concentrity gauge will tell you if this is a problem. Straighter the better. The other problem is extractors that apply side force on the base of the case. Defiance is a big one here, their mini16 cut is deep and will put side pressure on the case. I put a piece of tape on the bottom of the extractor to hold it up enough to eliminate that. Either of these two issues will cause you to never get rid of the slight click at the top of bolt lift.

Keep them coming Alex reason I.am on here Thanks I.am to old to figger out for myself Urv

 

[alinwa]

I've got a tip on the 'stripped bolt method'....... DON'T USE IT!

It tells ya NUTTIN except what the gun _would_ do if you loaded and shot it with only a few of the parts in place.

To me it's like testing "what your car will run in the quarter mile" by taking the motor out and pushing it. Who cares what the gun does with a stripped bolt? Any reading you get is rendered completely useless once you reassemble the rifle. Any crookedyness induced by the extractor, ejector plunger, or cocked rounds in the chamber will be right there once you chamber a round for real....any differences in seating depth induced by the round being held off the boltface, in short ANYTHING that's done differently than the rifle sets when loaded and fired just seems irrelevant to me.

If yer gun makes crooked rounds- something's wrong
If LOADING yer guns makes the rounds crookedy-something's WRONG
If yer rounds are so crookedy that loading them into the crooked gun with spring pressure makes them more crooked-SOMETHIN'S WRONG!!

I just make dummies, or, if I'm setting on the bench I'll even use loaded rounds, and jamset them. IN THE GUN. No strippers need be present. Sometimes I've even checked them for runout (an excersize in futility, I don't MAKE runout, EVER)

If you make dummies, jamset them in the gun 5 times and they read way different SOMETHING'S WRONG (often a tiny burr or roughness in the leade if a new new chamber)

All's I'm saying is...... this obsession with taking measurements under unlikely conditions simply doesn't redound with me!

I don't get it.

Well that, and I've got a reputation to uphold. A reputation of basically disagreeing with EVERBODY!

LOL

al

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Al,
You can disagree. The stripped bolt method gives you a reference point. One that you can find to the thousandth every time. Its not effected by neck tension, carbon in the neck, bullet pressure ring, throat condition, ext. Its fast and accurate. Most of us check the throat every time we load and if the throat wears .001" we adjust the seating depth .001". Jam is too crude and not repeatable enough for high level long range competition. Crooked cases are normal before they are fired. Its very common for someone to use a new case to make a dummy from to check the oal in their new barrel. Another nice thing about this method is, if I am .010" in so is the next guy, and the next guy. .010" off jam could be anywhere depending on many of the variables that effect it.

 

[alinwa]

.................Jam is too crude and not repeatable enough for high level long range competition.

Well thank you for allowing me to disagree

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Well thank you for allowing me to disagree

I'll give you something even better to disagree with
"Jam is one of the worst methods you could ever use."
I'll give an example.
One of the best long range bullet makers ever has more than one die. One die makes a bullet with a good sized pressure ring while the other doesnt. Both of those bullets will shoot at the same distance from touch. However they will have different jam lengths due to the effect of the pressure ring. Just one example of why.

 

[Willie]

I'm a big fan of the "stripped method". It's fast and easy to monitor lands movement and handy for first setups. I have had several actions that required pulling the extractor to relieve side pressure, but that's no big deal. On new brass, I just find one with no runout. My favorite way to set base to datum bump and touch length. Good tips Alex, keep it up.

 

[alinwa]

I'll give you something even better to disagree with
"Jam is one of the worst methods you could ever use."
I'll give an example.
One of the best long range bullet makers ever has more than one die. One die makes a bullet with a good sized pressure ring while the other doesnt. Both of those bullets will shoot at the same distance from touch. However they will have different jam lengths due to the effect of the pressure ring. Just one example of why.

Aaahhhh buggahh, here's a novel idea..... we probably don't even disagree that much!

I was never trying to imply that any method of "jamset" is where to shoot from, but I do believe that while setting off a stripped bolt might be slightly more inherently accurate under controlled conditions it's finding a starting point that's important. In fact rarely is any jamset, neither mine nor your'n the most consistent place to shoot from. IME once a person has found a consistent starting point one can then play with it. I just happen to use a heavy jamset as my starting point to belay the thought of having to work "in" from my starting point as well as "out." In fact when I do find a setup that likes heavy jam I usually seat over-long and let the bullets re-seat on close, believing that this re-set can offer an advantage in normalizing breakaway force.

But I can't really agree with "Both of those bullets will shoot at the same distance from touch" ....... not always.....so I guess I'm still safe. (And may well be WRONG... maybe these two bullets are the same, I've just not experienced this phenomenon)

I don't believe in 'Pet Loads' neither, even though Ken Waters is one of my heroes

I believe ya' got's ta' let the gun tell you what it wants and to do that, you need a consistent starting point.

I play with lots of leade angles as well as ogives and find "touch" to be very difficult to establish at times, even with many colors of Sharpies at my disposal, hence my predilection for hard jam as my starting point of choice.

 

[flintcreek6412]

All I know is that after watching Alex's video last year it has taken all guess work out of it. I used to use markers, candle carbon and all kinds of other things to touch the lands by feel and then take the average of a bunch of different measurements. They would always vary by as much as .005". Now, it's dead nuts every time. Nothing subjective about it at all.

I also taught me not to pay much attention when people say they shoot .005 or .010 off the lands because depending on the how they measure to the lands, their .005 may actually be a slight jam by my measurement.

 

[hogpatrol]

I use both the stripped bolt and stony point and am usually within .002 of each other. As previously posted, it's a REFERENCE point.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Aaahhhh buggahh, here's a novel idea..... we probably don't even disagree that much!

I was never trying to imply that any method of "jamset" is where to shoot from, but I do believe that while setting off a stripped bolt might be slightly more inherently accurate under controlled conditions it's finding a starting point that's important. In fact rarely is any jamset, neither mine nor your'n the most consistent place to shoot from. IME once a person has found a consistent starting point one can then play with it. I just happen to use a heavy jamset as my starting point to belay the thought of having to work "in" from my starting point as well as "out." In fact when I do find a setup that likes heavy jam I usually seat over-long and let the bullets re-seat on close, believing that this re-set can offer an advantage in normalizing breakaway force.

But I can't really agree with "Both of those bullets will shoot at the same distance from touch" ....... not always.....so I guess I'm still safe. (And may well be WRONG... maybe these two bullets are the same, I've just not experienced this phenomenon)

I don't believe in 'Pet Loads' neither, even though Ken Waters is one of my heroes

I believe ya' got's ta' let the gun tell you what it wants and to do that, you need a consistent starting point.

I play with lots of leade angles as well as ogives and find "touch" to be very difficult to establish at times, even with many colors of Sharpies at my disposal, hence my predilection for hard jam as my starting point of choice.

Al, Im not saying to not know your jam point as well. If your jam is .030 in just work back from .030 in. I also play with different reamer designs and have not had the issue, but I have worked through problems that cause issues which is why I made this post. I dont believe in pet loads either, but seating depth (same barrel make, bullet, and reamer) sure do seem to be pretty consistent. But the best shoots never assume anything. Another issue I find with jam is it can pull the bullet out some when you pop the bolt open. I just had this happen in a 7mm. So we end up working short to long until the bullet is pushed back rather than too long. I still like to know where jam is so I know how much in the lands you can go. Most guys in LR just are not shooting that deep in though. Jam works for you, I am not trying to convince you to switch.

 

[JFrank]

Al, Im not saying to not know your jam point as well. If your jam is .030 in just work back from .030 in. I also play with different reamer designs and have not had the issue, but I have worked through problems that cause issues which is why I made this post. I dont believe in pet loads either, but seating depth (same barrel make, bullet, and reamer) sure do seem to be pretty consistent. But the best shoots never assume anything. Another issue I find with jam is it can pull the bullet out some when you pop the bolt open. I just had this happen in a 7mm. So we end up working short to long until the bullet is pushed back rather than too long. I still like to know where jam is so I know how much in the lands you can go. Most guys in LR just are not shooting that deep in though. Jam works for you, I am not trying to convince you to switch.

Gents
Is this the most controversial topic on this forum?
If not it has to be in the top 3
1. Finding the lands
2. Ladder test /Seating depth
3. Shoulder Bumping
4.EDIT- ANNEALING
I wonder what order is correct?
J

 

[STS]

Gents
Is this the most controversial topic on this forum?
If not it has to be in the top 3
1. Finding the lands
2. Ladder test /Seating depth
3. Shoulder Bumping
I wonder
J

Without question the most controversial topic on this forum is annealing. There's not even a close second.

 

[lpreddick]

Removing the EJector from the bolt is so important as well as using a sized case such that one feels absolutely no resistance at bolt closure. I a firm believer in seating bullets into the lands( engravings twice as long as wide) and your described technique has been a Godsend! Thank you.

 

[Lucky Shooter]

Removing the EJector from the bolt is so important as well as using a sized case such that one feels absolutely no resistance at bolt closure. I a firm believer in seating bullets into the lands( engravings twice as long as wide) and your described technique has been a Godsend! Thank you.

 

[TZaun]

Gents
Is this the most controversial topic on this forum?
If not it has to be in the top 3
1. Finding the lands
2. Ladder test /Seating depth
3. Shoulder Bumping
4.EDIT- ANNEALING
I wonder what order is correct?
J

Jim, I think you could maybe add moly coating bullets to the list.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Annealing should not even BE a topic. Its like everything else. Its works with some combos and will kill the accuracy of others. Blanket statements about annealing just mean you have not worked with enough barrels and calibers yet

 

[Ccrider]

For us newbies, it would be helpful if someone would post instructions on how to strip a bolt. I use the Stoney point tool because taking the bolt spring out does not seem to be a simple proposition.