Timing Savage actions

[ARshuter]

I keep reading about timing and truing savage actions. I understand what truing is but how do you time an action? Thanks.

 

[drybean]

also interested

 

[geargrinder]

Fred Moreo - Timing & Truing Explained

http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,4899.0.html

 

[xr650rRider]

I have had 2 Savage dual port target actions "done/supposedly done" by Fred at SSS. One was part of a complete rifle build and the other was from my factory Savage 12 Benchrest. I had already polished my factory action and installed the "lift kit" ball bearing in .357 mag case and shortened the bolt assembly screw. I read where the T&T job made them like a custom action. "Gliding on ball bearings"........"lift bolt with 1 finger after firing". So I had to have it done. So I sent it in. Finally after 3 months I had to demand that my action be sent back to me whether it had been T&T or not. I was charged the full price and having to pay shipping both ways the total was a little over $162. The only thing touched on the action was the back of the bolt head had the chamfer removed.

 

[xr650rRider]

(continued)

The wave washer was moved from behind to between the bolt head halves. The bolt face looked like it had been trued with a 60 grit stone with the ejector still in place. (It had the same finish as the bolt face and had sharp edges) I had sent the barrel nut in with the action. The receiver face had not been touched, the barrel nut had not been touched. Nothing on the cocking ramps had been touched. All in all it takes the same amount of effort to lift the bolt as before and the accutrigger has to be set up above 12 ounces or it trips everytime the bolt is closed with any force. So for > $162 I got a bolt head that had been trued.
On the complete rifle build the trigger in set a little lighter and won't trip as easy with bolt closure. The bolt lift after firing is slighter easier but still nowhere near a 1 finger custom bolt lift.

 

[xr650rRider]

(continued)

I can't see any machining marks on the bolt cocking ramps at all and I completely disassembled it. Lift kit was installed and BAS was shortened. The firing pin protusion was set. The bolt head was machined the same as the other and had a slightly better finish on it. Still removed some brass from Lapua cases but not as bad as the other one. I did not remove the Brux barrel so I can't say what was done to action face or barrel nut but it does have the SSS recoil lug. The Accutrigger blade spring was cut, so that 6 coils remained. So far the complete build is shooting just slightly worse than my factory Savage with Shilen select match barrel. This my experience and nothing more.

 

[geargrinder]

So, what your saying is that you have nothing to add about T&T, but that you had a bad experience with SSS.

I added the link because it is an explanation of the process, not for you to complain about the service.

 

[jonbearman]

He should complain as it shows that all the hub bub about T&T is probably just that.I read the article and it is plain to see you couldnt do it at home,no way,it is complicated and if it was done at the tune of 162.00,that sounds awful low for the amount of supposed work that ahs to be done.You might as well not do it if it cant be done right.I would send mine to stockade and let Kevin do it.I for one would be delighted not to get ripped off by smiths who just dont want to do the job in a timely fashion .Timing and truing on a remington is about 400.00 and up.You might as well buy a bat.I run them (savage) stock and still get outstanding performance.

 

[geargrinder]

I never said he shouldn't complain. I was just pointing out that he hijacked the thread and took it off topic.

The thread is about timing a Savage action. Not complaining about SSS.

 

[xr650rRider]

My response was absolutely about T&T and that you might NOT and probably would NOT see any improvement. I can only speak from my experience with 2 actions from SSS.

 

[RonAKA]

I don't think the thread is going off topic. I'm finding it informative, and also supportive of my thoughts that T&T on a factory Savage is probably not worth it for me.

 

[treeman]

I would like to see some pics of leade ramps machined by fred or any body for that matter to see the difference Fred talks about in the post. I've noticed what he's talking a bout but I have just took a little of the corners of the lugs for clearence. it did make the bolt easier to open and close. but machineing the ramps would be a better solution.

Darrell

 

[ChipEckardt]

I had my Savage F-12 timed and trued from SSS and it came back feeling like glass. Liked it so much I sent my second F-12 in for the same work. Timing and trueing DO make a difference on Savage F-12s.

Chip

 

[kelbro]

I had three actions timed and trued by SSS and one by Stockade. I can definitely feel the difference. Some actions are a little better out of the box than others and the improvements might not be as noticeable. I have one Savage model 12 that is really tight. It will be going in as soon as my number comes up on the list.

 

[TAB]

I had a T&T job and an Evloution trigger put on a Model 12 BVSS by SSS/Fred in December 2009. It made a world of difference on my receiver. Resting my thumb on top of the tang, I can open the bolt with only my index finger. There was a string on the Savage Shooters Forum with some data on actual torque needed to open/close a standard action and one that had the T&T. The Evolution trigger is clean and crisp at 2oz. I should point out this is a benchrest ONLY rifle.

It is not hype. I do not claim to understand the how or why the T&T works, but it most certainly did on my rifle. I'd do it again.

 

[kelbro]

I would give the edge to SSS's work based on my experience but if i needed one done pretty quick, i wouldn't hesitate to use Kevin again.

 

[JFrank]

I'm revisiting this thread to bring forth these questions:
Does anyone have recent experience with Kevin Rayhill's Savage bolt lift kits and timing?
How does his process differ from others?
Has anyone experienced a loss of accuracy with light strikes from bolt lift kits?
This is an area I'd like to learn more about prior to jumping in the hole.
Curious

 

[Delfuego]

I owned Kevin's kit and it did next to nothing to lighten the bolt lift. I made my own with a RC car thrust bearing. That plus generous smoothing, lapping of the bolt, contact, cocking areas and BAS. made it a pretty slick action. I also think a different trigger would help. I got a buddy with a stainless action and the SAV-2 trigger in his and its very smooth and light.

There is another kit sold around the forum, but a cannot recall the name. It seems pretty smart.

 

[DHuffman]

I've had two T & T's done by SSS the before and after was a night and day improvement. Truly smooth, light custom action feel now. Both were sent in when told to do so and were back to me in 60 days.

With that being said I can't even get them to answer an email anymore so I doubt I'll be doing business with them in the future.

 

[Laurie]

Some actions are a little better out of the box than others and the improvements might not be as noticeable.

That's my experience. Of the three PTAs I owned together at one time, function ranged from very acceptable / smooth for an out of the box factory action to poor / heavy bolt lift, horribly 'notchy'. They also varied in other important aspects primarily firing pin fit in the aperture in the bolt-head so their propensity to produce primer cratering / blanking varied a great deal from little to 'badly'. One I own with 473 dia. face head has a visibly concave bearing surface and produces 'fireformed' primer cups to match. No two produced the same minimum usable trigger pull weight and one is more prone to seeing the setting change through recoil until it starts to cause sear problems and needs a heavier reset - this may be as it was used for 308 now 7mm-08 and the two others for 223.

I read somewhere that Savage buys all the various bolt parts in from a number of contractors who investment cast the parts, Savage final-polishing and assembling them in its factory. Hence the variations between individual actions depending on how the tolerances between multiple suppliers work out. (Reminds me of how car engines used to be in the bad old days before Japanese QC methods and improved manufactring technology transformed them. I once read an article during my long-gone youth on 'blueprinting' the European 4 cylinder 1,600 cc pushrod Cortina GT / 1600E engine mandated in starter 'Formula Ford' single-seater race cars - this work potentially increased shaft output by IIRC some 10-20 bhp over most factory gate examples and that was a lot for these low power engines.)

Savage PTAs work well enough though and I can live with their quirks. My only regret is that when I needed to sell one or my pair of 223 FTR rifles, the way things worked out it was naturally the one with the best timed / best trigger action of the trio that went. It would be nice though if Savage could make all of their actions as well as the best of them!