Time to make the donuts....

[RGRobinett]

I will just add this...more a question than an answer, but here goes.

Most presses offer tremendous leverage which HAS to reduce what is felt in the handle, right? So, with today's technology in measuring pressures, by one means or another...wouldn't it make more sense to utilize better pressure measuring of today, deleting ALL leverage and just mounting a hydro or pneumatic cylinder to the ram, giving 1:1 pressure difference measurements...vs "feel" through all that leverage? Hand made has been the standard for a really long time, based on " feel" with a ton of leverage involved.

I own and, for some situations/operations, use pneumatic assist via devices (have 3 f them, for use with the LEE CAST CLASSIC presses) made by Charlie Hood - the only operation where I let the pneumatic assist override 'tactility' is for core 'squirting'/forming; for this operation, the uniformity of pressure and speed produce much more uniform core weight.

Regardless of diameter/weight, via a given core squirt/form die, the Hood air assisted Lee Classic Cast presses produce cores with an extreme weight range of < 0.1 Gr.- very similar to what one can expect with cores purchased from Charlie (Hood Custom Products). The SAME core form die, mounted on any of the RockChucker, Ammo Masters, or, B&A clones will produce an extreme range of 0.3 Gr., with the vast majority falling into a range of 0.2 Gr. Cam-over isn't, "all it's cracked up to be".

With full automation, we can control speed, pressure, and dwell . . . but, until AI takes over, and replaces humans entirely, automation cannot/does not incorporate 'TACTILE JUDGEMENT' - "that felt funny". You don't want those, "funny feelers" in your box of BR match bullets. Therefore, for any operation, other than making cores, I use only enough assist to "lighten the load", while still providing that tactile feedback.

Using 'hillbilly' methodology, to provide some sense of pressure/force required to point [.30 Cal.] bullets, once in a while, I'll attach my "bow/archery-scale" to the 18" long handle (compound block-face to face of 2" diameter ball handle) on one of the Niemi converted AmmoMaster (RCBS) presses and 'weigh' a few point-up pulls. This measurement produces 73-75 pounds of peak force - this is how all of my thirty caliber 112 and 118 Gr. bullets are pointed - even at this peak force, the tactile feedback is quite valuable, and helps assure UNIFORMITY - some (most?) would be surprised at the accuracy of the judgement one developes to identify the 'stinkers'.

That said, in testing, a very high percentage of the 'stinkers' shoot quite well . . . but even yours truly won't use the 'funny feelers' in a registered tournament where I intend, against all odds, to win. Here's the "kettle calling the pot black": the making of competition quality hand swaged bullets isn't for pantywaists. RG

 

[Kiwishooter]

Al, I love this thread. It helps me wrap my head around why good bullets aren't inexpensive.

So, a few decades back I had Steve Kostanich build a nice 6-BR for me.
Being the guy I am, I didn't want to shoot what everybody else was shooting. (Okay, I've learned since then) So, there was this fella that lived in Bulls Gap, TN (Kirk Etheridge) who was making some 66gr 8s ogive bullets. So, I ordered a few of them.
They shot very well. The big surprise came every time I shot then at 200 yds, they just made little round holes. I have no idea why I didn't order more of them, but I didn't.

Time has passed, Kirk is no longer in the game as far as I know, but his bullets are tattooed on my memory.

Al, I hope your bullets shoot tiny little bug holes on every target.
From what I've seen, they are pretty damn good.

Mike just wondering what length jacket those bullets were made on?
No Kirk isn't making bullets anymore

 

[Mike Casselton]

Mike just wondering what length jacket those bullets were made on?
No Kirk isn't making bullets anymore

I wish I could answer that.
I know one of our members here is sitting on a pile of them. Unfortunately, I can't recall his name

 

[jackieschmidt]

I will just add this...more a question than an answer, but here goes.

Most presses offer tremendous leverage which HAS to reduce what is felt in the handle, right? So, with today's technology in measuring pressures, by one means or another...wouldn't it make more sense to utilize better pressure measuring of today, deleting ALL leverage and just mounting a hydro or pneumatic cylinder to the ram, giving 1:1 pressure difference measurements...vs "feel" through all that leverage? Hand made has been the standard for a really long time, based on " feel" with a ton of leverage involved.

As one who does make his own bullets, I will let refrain from comment.

 

[D Coots]

Question on how often folks clean dies?

Later

Dave

 

[jackieschmidt]

Question on how often folks clean dies?

Later

Dave

Dave, with my carbide dies, all I do is spray some brake cleaner up in the die, then blow it out with air.
On the point up die, I will point up a few bullets with a little extra lube on them to re-season it so to speak. Then point up a bullet with the proper lube and check the critical dimensions. If correct, I make bullets.

Steel dies might need more care. I do not have any steel dies.

 

[brcman]

Dave- I usually make 4,000 bullets in a lot which is a case of 1-inch J4 jackets. I have Rock Chucker presses set up for each operation. Before starting a lot of bullets, I take off the side levers and lube them with 90 weight gear oil and also lube every pivot point. I clean my dies with isopropyl alcohol and then use a cotton swab to pe-lube them with my regular bullet lube before starting. I put the first 30 or so bullets aside after that and save them for fire forming cases, then I start the lot of bullets.

 

[D Coots]

I use brake clean. I should have a set number and then clean the dies...but I haven't yet, but will. For sure run some thru to season the die as measurements really change for me.

Later

Dave

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

As one who does make his own bullets, I will let refrain from comment.

As one who has also made my own bullets...my post was not meant to be controversial at all. Rather, it's only logical that we can measure pressure in fractions of an ounce and way less, without mechanical leverage being part of the equation, but a simple 1:1 pressure/force measurement, Jackie.

I have no complaints with the bullets I buy from custom makers...it's not about that at all. I don't believe you, me or anyone else can feel what we can quantifiably measure, even without regard for all that leverage built into typical presses. If you believe differently, I just don't know what to tell you about that. Pressure could be measured or a system similar to the newer setups for checking seating force for bullets.

Don't stick your finger above the ram of a rock chucker and let the handle fall unless you wanna lesson in compound leverage, though. Lol!

 

[AlNyhus]

My steel point up dies get cleaned with 91% isopropyl alcohol and cotton q-tips after each 1,000. The first 10 bullets get a bit extra lube from my finger tips. By bullet #15, all the dimensions have settled down and it's time to get some tunes playing and get into the rhythm.

Press pivot pins get lubed each 1,000 pulls with Permatex Super Lube. I used Neco Moly Paste for quite a while. The Super Lube does a good job without the mess of the moly paste.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[RGRobinett]

As one who has also made my own bullets...my post was not meant to be controversial at all. Rather, it's only logical that we can measure pressure in fractions of an ounce and way less, without mechanical leverage being part of the equation, but a simple 1:1 pressure/force measurement, Jackie.

I have no complaints with the bullets I buy from custom makers...it's not about that at all. I don't believe you, me or anyone else can feel what we can quantifiably measure, even without regard for all that leverage built into typical presses. If you believe differently, I just don't know what to tell you about that. Pressure could be measured or a system similar to the newer setups for checking seating force for bullets.

Don't stick your finger above the ram of a rock chucker and let the handle fall unless you wanna lesson in compound leverage, though. Lol!

Think not "quantifiable measurements", but rather, visually observable AND unobservable (internal): folds, micro-folds, slippage: defects which ARE readily detectable by "feel", but may be concealed/masked by pressure/speed/dwell. This is an human attribute which machinery lacks . . . or, so I believe.

Humans, can feel [external jacket] folds which are nearly imperceptible "to the eye" - while they will not affect precision, I don''t want them in my tournament ammo - though, cosmetic they may be, I consider them defects. Customers may be even pickier than the maker, considering any observable differing facet a defect: shiny do-dads syndrome . . . so, one needs to cull the ugly ones.

The frog hairs can be split in thousands of ways - in the end, targets, "tell the tale". Bullet making IS very simple: the straight forward use of precision tools, components, and trial and error: there is no magic.

Many years past, I was fortunate to be schooled in the trapping of coyotes, by one of the GREATS - [the late] George Good - the last words he issued at schools end: "keep yer eyes, ears, and MIND open - you might go down the road a mile and see someone setting his traps upside-down in the road ditch, and pissing on them, who catches more coyotes than I do"!! That was the best of the three day lesson. RG

 

[WIB3]

I made 103gr 6mm bullets for 5 years. BTHP Match. I bought Hood cores and they are exceptional. Neimi carbide dies and the best presses money can buy. Lenzi. I weighed cores and jackets on a Sartorius balance good to .0001gr. Spun cores for concentric measurements less than .0002 of an inch. J4 jackets. I sold everything because what I found was that there was no distinction in advantage over purchasing custom bullets of the same weight. I was wasting time trying to get an advantage that really didn’t exist. For the record I compete in 1000yd Benchrest. BT bullets are completely different than FB short range bullets.

 

[WIB3]

The whole process to gain some sort of personal satisfaction was really not worth the effort.

 

[jackieschmidt]

The whole process to gain some sort of personal satisfaction was really not worth the effort.

The aggravation factor can offset a lot of the personal satisfaction.

I do not pull handles. I worked out a deal with my best friend, who is retired. I buy everything, do all of the set up, critical measuring, etc, and he does the actual bullet making. He is very meticulous.
He gets 1/2 of the bullets.

 

[Kiwishooter]

I own and, for some situations/operations, use pneumatic assist via devices . RG

RG have you got a pic of this setup, it sounds quite interesting.

What process do you use the B&A clone presses for?

Thanks
Kiwi

 

[Fuj]

Got up 3:00 am to do the old guy thing, and seen the warmer on the
coffee pot was still on. Poured the last of it, grabbed the note book
and made some notes and sketches. I won't reveal what the voices in
my head are telling me this time, but the evil part of me may have a
plan......Brewed a fresh pot. As I say, "Never let a bad idea go to waste"

 

[AlNyhus]

Got up 3:00 am to do the old guy thing, and seen the warmer on the
coffee pot was still on. Poured the last of it, grabbed the note book
and made some notes and sketches. I won't reveal what the voices in
my head are telling me this time, but the evil part of me may have a
plan......Brewed a fresh pot. As I say, "Never let a bad idea go to waste"

I get some of my best/worst ideas while mowing the yard.

 

[AlNyhus]

A box full of Lee Classic Cast press and parts, some home whittled gizmos, a hundred each core seated .925" and 1.00" J4's, assorted taps, a carbide reamer or three, 16 lbs. of powder, an off-the-reservation style pillar bedded Ruger 77/22 Hornet and temps in the single digits. Time to head into the wilds of the Iowa sub continent to see if our ideas measure up to our brainstorms.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[JoeDuke]

A box full of Lee Classic Cast press and parts, some home whittled gizmos, a hundred each core seated .925" and 1.00" J4's, assorted taps, a carbide reamer or three, 16 lbs. of powder, an off-the-reservation style pillar bedded Ruger 77/22 Hornet and temps in the single digits. Time to head into the wilds of the Iowa sub continent to see if our ideas measure up to our brainstorms.

Good shootin' -Al

Yall have a good time! Tell your partner in crime hello for me.

 

[Tparrish]

Interesting stuff, lots of good info. No I don't need to start another habit (Making bullets).