Three shot group question

[BartsBullets]

So here is my take on target and what it’s telling me. I’m not focused on a single group but the overall picture it’s showing me.

1. The barrel has wide load window. Four different loads over 6 tenths of powder. Groups measured 1C 355, 1D 324, 2A 232, 2B 265, 3A 155. If you have Ballistic-X you can check my measurements. The outside to outside on the 10 ring is an inch.

2. The wide load window tells me I have a good seating depth.

3. Very little change in point of Impact over the entire load window. That’s one of the hallmarks of a really good barrel. 1D is a little higher but that was caused by conditions.

4. All of the above tell me my tuner is in a good spot.

5. At this point I can tune throughout the day either with powder or by adjusting the tuner. If I were to preload I’d go with 29.7 (middle of the load window) and adjust the tuner as needed.

Bart

 

[BartsBullets]

Post some tuner group pics! I'm sure you've correlated tuner marks with powder charges. I'm trying to make that point in another thread. You can probably do it better.

Roger that! When I get a chance I’ll try and put something together.

 

[JFrank]

@BartsBullets - I had to try and interpret this one a few days ago, round robin at a thousand yards.

Any takers ?

 

[WyleWD]

View attachment 1348865
Can anything be learned from these 200 yard 3 shot groups? Shot with 6PPC intended use is short range Benchrest.

Groups with X through them were with IMR 8208. The gun didn’t care for it. Groups 1C 1D, 2A and 2B are shot with V133.

3A was shot the following day.

Great post Bart. A picture is indeed worth a thousand words. I have 3 questions.

1) What is the backer board construction in this picture?

2) Would you take that 29.8 group load to a 200yd match and expect it to do well without testing it at 200yds first?

3) The bullet holes on the 29.6 load look very clean in the picture. Is it just the spot on the backer board or does it tell you anything on the load such as seating depth or neck tension??

Just curious. Thanks in advance. WD

 

[Albany Mountain]

Three shot groups only make the one shot group twice as bad!

 

[BartsBullets]

View attachment 1348932@BartsBullets - I had to try and interpret this one a few days ago, round robin at a thousand yards.

Any takers ?

Not a lot to love there. I’d change the seating depth and try again.

Bart

 

[BartsBullets]

Great post Bart. A picture is indeed worth a thousand words. I have 3 questions.

1) What is the backer board construction in this picture?

2) Would you take that 29.8 group load to a 200yd match and expect it to do well without testing it at 200yds first?

3) The bullet holes on the 29.6 load look very clean in the picture. Is it just the spot on the backer board or does it tell you anything on the load such as seating depth or neck tension??

Just curious. Thanks in advance. WD

1. The backer is 1/2 inch installation with that silver stuff on the front.

2. Those groups are at 200 yards. I’m confident the gun will shoot 200 yards good bad and ugly with the five three shot groups it’s agging in the mid 2s and not doing anything crazy.

3. To me the group tells me it’s close but not right. Nothing was in the flags for that shot to take off.

 

[Bc'z]

I never stated that three shot groups are not of value in load development .
I use them to save components too.
It is just the " I shot a .175 three shot group" guys that make me scratch my head.
I would say that the load looed promising and I will need to follow up with three five shot groups to
see if it truly is.

What if the 3 shot groups were zeros?

Not a lot to love there. I’d change the seating depth and try again.

Bart

Bart, Jim and me have discussed the round Robin a bit.
My belief is to shoot each charge/seating depth at once versus staggering them.
I could see the benefits if a guy was shooting 20 shots in 20 minutes due to constant changes in conditions, but for BR I'm thinking it's not beneficial as you fellas are sending your 5-10 shots down range with a quickness trying to stay within a certain condition.
Thoughts??

 

[BartsBullets]

What if the 3 shot groups were zeros?

Bart, Jim and me have discussed the round Robin a bit.
My belief is to shoot each charge/seating depth at once versus staggering them.
I could see the benefits if a guy was shooting 20 shots in 20 minutes due to constant changes in conditions, but for BR I'm thinking it's not beneficial as you fellas are sending your 5-10 shots down range with a quickness trying to stay within a certain condition.
Thoughts??

YES. Shoot your three shots at one time!

Bart

 

[JFrank]

@Bc'z @BartsBullets
Yes sir excellent advice and thank you , I did get a decent load figured out for the following day but I certainly had a WTH moment when I drove down to check that one.
Jim

 

[shooterjon]

I have used three shot groups to test loads just to save scarce components.
I am of the opinion that a three shot group is of no value in use for bragging rights or as
proof of a rifle or loads accuracy.
Any group competition that I have heard about alaways uses five shot groups.
I am certain everyone here has shot a three shot group that is way better that any five they have shot.
For me any brag about a three is ignored as not valid.

I toooooo used to use 5 shot groups ,then as supplies got tight I also moved to 3 shot groups.
Just wondering, if supplies get any tighter I may have to move to ONE shot Groups.
Just me thinkin !

 

[Bill Norris]

I have used three shot groups to test loads just to save scarce components.
I am of the opinion that a three shot group is of no value in use for bragging rights or as
proof of a rifle or loads accuracy.
Any group competition that I have heard about alaways uses five shot groups.
I am certain everyone here has shot a three shot group that is way better that any five they have shot.
For me any brag about a three is ignored as not valid.

I have to beg to differ with this because with two of my B R rifles I have shot at least one 5-shot group that is as tight or tighter than all the 3-shot groups I have shot with those particular rifles.

"I am certain everyone here has shot a three shot group that is way better that any five they have shot."

 

[M-61]

My best 5 shot groups have always had a phenomenal 3 shot group on the way to 5!

 

[David Milisock]

I have used three shot groups to test loads just to save scarce components.
I am of the opinion that a three shot group is of no value in use for bragging rights or as
proof of a rifle or loads accuracy.
Any group competition that I have heard about alaways uses five shot groups.
I am certain everyone here has shot a three shot group that is way better that any five they have shot.
For me any brag about a three is ignored as not valid.

Not knowing what you're loading for makes any advice dubious. I load for light barreled hunting using 3 shot groups. NOTE: most of these rifles at best print 2 holes real well at 100 yards, the third moves, anymore just gets worse. Five shot groups are a waste of material!

Testing 5-3 shot loads takes about 4 or 5 hours depending on ambient temperature, so take something else along to shoot. Many times this process can take a dozen range trips or more to find a decent load. I'll then test my 3 best loads at 100 yards at 300, I'll use the load that does best at 300. In general, you end up with a decent group at both ranges, sometimes it's another round of testing.

I then zero for cold bore shooting, I've done many rifles for others. I have a 96 Mauser in 6.5x55, a 98 Mauser in 8x57JS and a Model 17 Remington in 06 that all work similarly, 2 shots touch or very nearly touch, the third shot spreads out to about an inch to 1 1/2" at 100 yards.

In hunting do you need more? For competitive I recommend you test your best 3 shot loads to match the game.

 

[Ackman]

I have used three shot groups to test loads just to save scarce components.
I am of the opinion that a three shot group is of no value in use for bragging rights or as
proof of a rifle or loads accuracy.
Any group competition that I have heard about alaways uses five shot groups.
I am certain everyone here has shot a three shot group that is way better that any five they have shot.
For me any brag about a three is ignored as not valid.

Think 5 shot, 4 shot, 3 shot, even 2 shot have their uses. Depends on what you're after. I took a newly put together 6BRX to the range with not much of an idea about loads, just wanted to see what it would do. At this particular range conditions warranted shooting at 75yds. Again, this was a quickie looksee series to get an idea about WC844 and 60g Sierra HP, so all 2 shot groups. One after another small hole, after the first one and a sight change, each in the same place on the target. Put together would have been a pretty decent 8 shot group.

 

[Ray123]

I still shoot mostly 5 shot groups, and validate with a 10 shot group. Even the 50 BMG and the 300 RUM get mostly 5 shot groups...it's enlightening to shoot a 5 shot 50 BMG group into .61 with a .51 diameter bullets... a rare occurrence with even non pulled military APIT going down range...it's a good load for this barrel, cold bore 1st shot hit 1/2" squares, 3 shots usually touching, 5 shots in one hole not easily accomplished...maybe if ya let the barrel cool waay down...but life's too short for that.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Think 5 shot, 4 shot, 3 shot, even 2 shot have their uses. Depends on what you're after. I took a newly put together 6BRX to the range with not much of an idea about loads, just wanted to see what it would do. At this particular range conditions warranted shooting at 75yds. Again, this was a quickie looksee series to get an idea about WC844 and 60g Sierra HP, so all 2 shot groups. One after another small hole, after the first one and a sight change, each in the same place on the target. Put together would have been a pretty decent 8 shot group.

Heck, I spun a pretty new bbl on a rifle last week, threw my std load at it and shot a few groups. First group was close so I moved the tuner a mark and it put 4 in a hole. Had 10 rounds left. Was gonna shoot a couple of 5 shot groups but after 5, the new group was still pretty tiny so I kept shooting and the hole mostly just got blacker. I don't shoot a lot of 10shot groups but it may have been my best ever 10 shot group. I kept expecting it to open up but they kept flying through the same hole. It measured roughly
.098!
I thought, WOW, this thing is gonna be a hammer. Took it to a match a couple of days later and it was one of the worst scores I can remember. Lol!

Fwiw, the gun and load are both good but I couldnt hit a barn door from inside that day. Tough conditions and a tough bench draw but mainly, I just never could find a condition that worked. Some days are just that way I guess.

 

[Carl S]

I am lucky to have access to a underground rifle range 100yds.new barrels after break in 3shot groups for hunting rifles.this target,first 3shots when rifle came back from proof house.New proof carbon barrel 1in14t..panda action.
rebeded in its original Mcmillan stock.not much load development needed shoots tight 150-200yds.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

View attachment 1348932@BartsBullets - I had to try and interpret this one a few days ago, round robin at a thousand yards.

Any takers ?

If thats a BRA and H4895 they literally covered the spot in between nodes. And shoot groups not round robin. Conditions must have been decent since its narrow. It should just start coming in in another couple tenths. But thats a lot of vertical still. A primer, nt, or seating change will probably still be in order.

 

[JFrank]

If thats a BRA and H4895 they literally covered the spot in between nodes. And shoot groups not round robin. Conditions must have been decent since its narrow. It should just start coming in in another couple tenths. But thats a lot of vertical still. A primer, nt, or seating change will probably still be in order.

I scratched my head on that one for sure and they normally don’t look like that. I chalked it up to poor gun handling or whatever then loaded 30.4 and shot this 2.3 group followed by a 4. 6

Added: I’ll look at seating again and nt again also