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Three shot group question

Gary C

I have used three shot groups to test loads just to save scarce components.
I am of the opinion that a three shot group is of no value in use for bragging rights or as
proof of a rifle or loads accuracy.
Any group competition that I have heard about alaways uses five shot groups.
I am certain everyone here has shot a three shot group that is way better that any five they have shot.
For me any brag about a three is ignored as not valid.
 
Gary C said:
I have used three shot groups to test loads just to save scarce components.
I am of the opinion that a three shot group is of no value in use for bragging rights or as
proof of a rifle or loads accuracy.
Any group competition that I have heard about alaways uses five shot groups.
I am certain everyone here has shot a three shot group that is way better that any five they have shot.
For me any brag about a three is ignored as not valid.
Click to expand...
I too do the same thing. The key is to make damn sure each round is shot under the same wind conditions. This will NEVER replace the 5 shot group , but is a sign of the times. Tommy Mc
 
May as well go with a two shot group because after that the group will not get any smaller. ;)

I started doing that when OCW/ladder testing. It saves enough bullets to focus on one specific load. I record the velocities too. It's very weak statistically but it's better than just sending bullets downrange that can't be replaced at the present time. I take my time and shoot at 100 with the goal of having both impacts touching. Once the "group" opens up to 1/2 inch I discard it. If I do it right I can save 20-30 bullets and then focus on 3 and 5 shot groups. Welcome to our new world. :mad:
 
Just guessing but - Three shot groups probably got popular at about the same time as magnum cartridges. Most of my magnums will really heat up a typical #3 contour bbl with 3 shots even when you are spacing them out a bit. 5 shot groups with the big mags will destroy the throat in pretty short order IMO.
 
I have done 90 percent of my load development for about 10 yrs with 2 shot groups. I don't care about group size during load development for, lack of a better word, bragging rights. I save components and barrel life for actual competitions which is my interest. It has allowed me to stay competitive and make a good barrel last longer for when it counts. I am lucky to have multiple competitive opportunities within easy driving distance most Saturdays and Sundays 7 months of the year. It can work. The keys are repeatability and never load develope without flags. Ok lets here the noise from all those who have never tried it, lol. Remember all these guns that shoot zeros then look at the RESULTS in actual competition.
 
New barrel, hunting rifle, I'll shoot two shot groups @200 to establish a powder charge and find a seating depth that appears to be good. Then back that up with several 3 shot groups over several days to determine consistency and confirm zero. If I can't find something quickly then on to the next bullet.
BR rifle I'll shoot a series of 3 shot groups. My wind reading skills aren't what they used to be. If I shoot 5-3 shot groups and everything looks good, I call it quits for load development.
 
I see this a lot with guys trying to tune their barrel tuners. Since they know they have a lot of settings to test, they lower the number of shots per setting. As a consequence of that, they reduce the validity of any particular node.

All a good 3 shot group ever did for me was justify another 2 or more shots.

A bad 3 shot group is already without hope, but a good 3 shot group is just justification for further testing.

If a 4th or 5th shot ruins the group, then the inspiring 3 shot group is invalidated by default.

If the 4th and 5th shot are inside the good 3 shot group, then the 3 shot group is validated by default.

So, the take away is that 3 shot groups are only useful in eliminating the hopeless.
 
I have gone to 3 shot groups because components are scarce. If the Barrel is warmed with a few sighters, 3 shot groups are just as good as 5 or 10 or 20 shot groups. If you aren't holding your rifle in a mechanical device, the errors are your loading or your induced errors.
 
As you increase the number of shots in a group the chances of conditions or your own abilities affecting the group size increase. I know that several very good rimfire shooters use 3 shot groups to tune and evaluate ammo ...lots of groups.

I think it is a matter of what you are personally comfortable and experienced with.

Gerry
 
I guess it depends on how good you are at evaluating the group. For me, in a barrel that shoots good, two shot groups will get me close, but three shot groups are easier to read. At 100 yards wit a with a good barrel, anything close to tune is going to put two shots on top of each other or close to it. Sort of hard to cipher much from that. The third shot usually confirms what is going on.
 
2 shot till trends found with powder and jump then 5 to verify/chrono and 10+ round shot in match conditions/time to verify load before I load 100+.... Fliers count. Unless you can 100% verify the flier to you, you have to find out what caused it and it counts for group size.
 
The number of shots required depends upon the objective. If you want to state that the long term capability of a particular load, for example, is "x" then a large number of shots is required. On the other hand if you shoot a powder charge ladder or seating depths, then three shots groups usually show a clear correlation across the continuum. Signal:noise!
 
All the competitions that I know about are at least 5 shots. If you only test with 3 how do you know what 4 & 5 are going to do?
3 shot may give you an idea what seating depth is but it won't tell you the group size.
As far as score shooting it may only be 1 shot per target but you want all 5 targets to be the same when you are done.
 
I like 2- or 3- modified OCW ladders. Plot the group sizes against charge weight and look for trends.

The aggregate of 5 or ten charge weights gives one a pretty good clue about how the rifle and shooter are doing too. That aggregate can be anywhere from ten to thirty shots depending on number of shots per weight increment and number of increments.
 
Pyscodog said:
When components are plentiful I shoot 5 shot groups. Lately I shoot 3 and if they are promising, I come back and shoot a few 5 shot groups. I have a friend that shoots one shot groups. Always shoots a bug hole. LOL!!
Click to expand...
This reminds me of the NBRSA nationals in Knoxville in I think '82. Ferris Pindell, PPC fame for you youngsters, was a rubber necker. When he got done shooting his group he would start scanning the targets. We were in the same relay. In the warm up match my first two shoots were small. At the time you could leave your bench after firing your group so I got up and walked back and watched Ferris. He was working his way towards my target. I knew when he got to it because he stopped, studied it and then stood up to see who shot it. The target crew didn't catch that I had shot only two shots and it was scored a .098" or something like that. I waited a couple of targets before telling the scoring shed about it.
I got a good laugh out of that gotcha.
 
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