Thoughts, please....feel like a unicorn hunter
- Thread starter Jody Simcox
- Start date
I"m surprised by the 7mm recommendations. By the time you push a 7mm fast enough and heavy enough to compete with a 6.5 or 6mm in windage, you are seriously increasing recoil. Did you read the part about a lightweight gun in a shorter barrel? The requirement to go out to 1000y means you're going to load at least 162 amax type of bullets, but more likely a 180 Berger. A 180 at 2600+ will have more recoil than a 75yo shooter wants to shoot with any regularity. A 108 ELD in a 6cm will have 10 ft-lb of recoil while a 162 AMAX/ELD will have over 16lb-ft of recoil in the same 8# rifle. This is not a small difference. Never mind the 180s commonly used in 7mm for 1000y.
I disagree with the recommendation of any 7mm given the limitations stated in the OP.
IMO, the 6.5 creedmoor is the very UPPER limit of what I'd want to hand a 75yo man. It's tolerable all day in a 13# gun, but in a 10# rifle, not nearly so much.
I also must politely disagree with the 223 recommendation as shooting to 1000y in a 24" barrel will be VERY difficult with 77gr or 80gr bullets. Especially aiming for a 1 moa dot on a 4moa plate. It'd be hard enough to hit the 4 moa plate with a transonic bullet.
By process of elimination, it's really a clear that a 6mm is the lowest recoil caliber that is viable to 1000y in a shorter barrel and reasonably-heavy rifle. Anything bigger is more than is necessary; anything smaller isn't capable of meeting the stated requirements.
Or such is my thinking. Obviously, it's just an opinion..
I disagree with the recommendation of any 7mm given the limitations stated in the OP.
IMO, the 6.5 creedmoor is the very UPPER limit of what I'd want to hand a 75yo man. It's tolerable all day in a 13# gun, but in a 10# rifle, not nearly so much.
I also must politely disagree with the 223 recommendation as shooting to 1000y in a 24" barrel will be VERY difficult with 77gr or 80gr bullets. Especially aiming for a 1 moa dot on a 4moa plate. It'd be hard enough to hit the 4 moa plate with a transonic bullet.
By process of elimination, it's really a clear that a 6mm is the lowest recoil caliber that is viable to 1000y in a shorter barrel and reasonably-heavy rifle. Anything bigger is more than is necessary; anything smaller isn't capable of meeting the stated requirements.
Or such is my thinking. Obviously, it's just an opinion..
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Bullet selection in 25 cal rules it out at a 1000y-capable target caliber. If not for this, I'd wholeheartedly agree. But until there's something like a high BC 125 Berger Hybrid or 130gr SMK in .25 cal, the caliber simply isn't viable for mostly target work to 1000y. I'm assuming the OP doesn't want to be confined to niche bullets or monolithic but rather stay with the "big four" offerings.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Theres only one rifle even mentioned here that fits the requirements. Ive never seen 99% of these recommendation’s ammo on the shelves. That leaves us with the 6.5 creedmoor that will be enjoyable for a 75yr old cat to shoot at 1000yds- accuracy and recoil wise.
Ccrider
Gold $$ Contributor
12lb including scope. If I was concerned about recoil 6.5 Creedmoor would have to have a break. Plenty of cheap factory ammo for it though. 6mm br factory ammo is available but pricey.
Since you already hand load, there will not be much to loading 6mm br. And you will have versatility to tweak things and make the gun shoot to its accuracy potential, going up and down with bullet/powder weight depending on what you are shooting. Plus less recoil with the 6br. Guess it depends on what is most important to you.
Yeah - a 223 he can walk in to any gun store in america and buy some ammo to have fun with. If it's a 1:8 twist rifle, you can load him up some 80gn loads that will get out there just fine. If he's wanting a light, comfortable to shoot rifle, then the smaller the better. I vote 223 with a suitably long freebore and a 1:8 twist. Barrel as long and as heavy as is tolerable, although I'd personally cap it at a 28" HV contour.
Al Lu
Gold $$ Contributor
"I’d like to build a gun for my soon-to-be 75 y/o father." My suggestions is to go to any of the top gunsmiths in this forum and build your Dad a laser rifle! I am younger but nothing is more satisfying(lots of smiles) than to shoot a rifle that allows you to touch at a target that is far away (200-1,000 yards). Get your budget in order and then go from there. My vote is the 6.5mm Creedmoor if you want to touch 1,000 yards ( thinking the wind plays?). Have not shot the BR to 1,000 so cannot comment but at 520 it is a blast! Good luck and blessings to have your dad with you.
Buy a Tikka, probably a T-3 Varmint, comes with 24" barrel, 6.5 Creedmor. I have the CTR. Shot Prime 130 gr really good and $20 a box Hornady 129 gr American Whitetail just as good as the Prime. I put a NF 3x15 on it. I have never shot anything at distance, but wanted to try and of course, wind made it tough. But with me shooting I was able to get a 4.5" group at 500 yds. I am sure an accomplished shooter would best that group by far.
Cheap and efficient.
Cheap and efficient.
dc.fireman
Sling & Irons!
How about, a sporterized Swedish Mauser?
They are:
1. plentiful
2. relatively inexpensive
3. competitive inside of, and out to 1k yards
4. low(ish) recoil
5. Ammunition is plentiful, and inexpensive (PPU makes acceptable ammunition which can be bought by the case).
6. If you decide to reload for it, you probably already have most of the components.
Being a fan of them, I'm moderately biased. But, the reasons I listed above seem to fit some of your criteria.
They are:
1. plentiful
2. relatively inexpensive
3. competitive inside of, and out to 1k yards
4. low(ish) recoil
5. Ammunition is plentiful, and inexpensive (PPU makes acceptable ammunition which can be bought by the case).
6. If you decide to reload for it, you probably already have most of the components.
Being a fan of them, I'm moderately biased. But, the reasons I listed above seem to fit some of your criteria.
I'd say a Howa mini in 6mm ARC would be great, as would the barreled 6.5 Grendel action. Factory ammo available, responds well to reloads; no trouble with 4moa plates.
Chassis kit for AR furniture modularity, or B&C stock and you're good to go.
It would mean a rebarrel for the 6mm ARC, but the Grendel may fit the bill first anyway.
-Mac
Chassis kit for AR furniture modularity, or B&C stock and you're good to go.
It would mean a rebarrel for the 6mm ARC, but the Grendel may fit the bill first anyway.
-Mac
My dad is turning 80. A trip to the range entails me packing and setting up everything. I keep him mostly at 100 yards and spend most of the time (2-3 hours) sharing memories and a snack. I find that he prefers shooting smaller cartridges, 223 or 222, and the suppressor makes the recoil feel like a 22lr. 10-250rounds later and he has hot his limit.
1) Recoil - 12# bolt gun does a lot to easy recoil. Money will help solve a big piece of puzzle ... buy a 30 cap. suppressor. This will significantly reducing recoil 77(308 feels like 223) and then you to go with lighter weight rifle setup.
2) Caliber - 223 is a bit light for hog and also for steel out at 1000 yards... it would be nice to have a little biggie hole and a little more energy at distance for banging steel. I think that you should consider an intermediate caliber (308 size). 6.5 Creedmoor is solid choice... not finicky, better performance than 308 and close to 2x barrel life of a 6mm cartridge. Pick a caliber that your dad can also find store bought ammo. Otherwise, you need to commit o being his designated reloader for all of his rifle's ammo... 6BR is only worth considering if you want to reload it for him.
3) Barrel Length - 24" is nice balance of weight and velocity potential
If a suppressor is not an option then revisit the caliber... something between 223 and 308 with ability to reach 1000 yards and still be viable hunting round (6.8 SPC and 224 Valkyrie can only perform one or the other criteria). Your dad might be the perfect candidate for a 6.5 Grendel or the new 6ARC. Both offer 1000 yard distance and solid hunting capability, and he will be able to find/buy ammo off the store shelf. Shot out of a bolt gun the performance of either of these two rounds will be better and your reloads should be able to optimize performance.
1) Recoil - 12# bolt gun does a lot to easy recoil. Money will help solve a big piece of puzzle ... buy a 30 cap. suppressor. This will significantly reducing recoil 77(308 feels like 223) and then you to go with lighter weight rifle setup.
2) Caliber - 223 is a bit light for hog and also for steel out at 1000 yards... it would be nice to have a little biggie hole and a little more energy at distance for banging steel. I think that you should consider an intermediate caliber (308 size). 6.5 Creedmoor is solid choice... not finicky, better performance than 308 and close to 2x barrel life of a 6mm cartridge. Pick a caliber that your dad can also find store bought ammo. Otherwise, you need to commit o being his designated reloader for all of his rifle's ammo... 6BR is only worth considering if you want to reload it for him.
3) Barrel Length - 24" is nice balance of weight and velocity potential
If a suppressor is not an option then revisit the caliber... something between 223 and 308 with ability to reach 1000 yards and still be viable hunting round (6.8 SPC and 224 Valkyrie can only perform one or the other criteria). Your dad might be the perfect candidate for a 6.5 Grendel or the new 6ARC. Both offer 1000 yard distance and solid hunting capability, and he will be able to find/buy ammo off the store shelf. Shot out of a bolt gun the performance of either of these two rounds will be better and your reloads should be able to optimize performance.
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AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
6mm of some kind with a side port muzzle break, shooting 105gish bullets, pleasant in all respects.
6.5's will kick to much
22's will blow too much
7mm anything will beat his brains out
At 75, he will probably NOT be laying on the ground shooting, so a good shooting table, stool, and rifle rest will help him tremendously.
At 75, he will not need fancy, just functional, super accurate, with moderate recoil. Scope clarity will be important, and trigger to suit his tastes. More than likely, time spend with his children and grand children will mean more than equipment.
Take some pictures, you will cherish them later on in life. Write the day's story on the back of the picture, small detail will matter.
6.5's will kick to much
22's will blow too much
7mm anything will beat his brains out
At 75, he will probably NOT be laying on the ground shooting, so a good shooting table, stool, and rifle rest will help him tremendously.
At 75, he will not need fancy, just functional, super accurate, with moderate recoil. Scope clarity will be important, and trigger to suit his tastes. More than likely, time spend with his children and grand children will mean more than equipment.
Take some pictures, you will cherish them later on in life. Write the day's story on the back of the picture, small detail will matter.
Some good recommendations so far. Have to agree with those who are saying 6mm variants. With you being a reloader you'll be able to tune the load to the gun so really it's just a matter of putting the right bullet/powder combo together to get you where you want to be. Hope you get a lot of range trips out of whatever you choose.
4 MOA plates out to 1,000 yards can be done with a 7mm-08 & 140gr Berger VLD-H. Even the 140gr Nosler Ballistic Tip can get you there.
I watched a guy with a Ruger 77 MKII in 257 Roberts shoot a 10 round group at 1,000 yards in the "X" ring using 75gr Sierra HP Varminter bullets.
No need to over complicate things.
If you want light weight that shoots, a Tikka T3 in either 7mm-08 or 6.5X55 will do ya nicely.
I watched a guy with a Ruger 77 MKII in 257 Roberts shoot a 10 round group at 1,000 yards in the "X" ring using 75gr Sierra HP Varminter bullets.
No need to over complicate things.
If you want light weight that shoots, a Tikka T3 in either 7mm-08 or 6.5X55 will do ya nicely.
The 6mm Creedmoor is a good round to consider. A #5 contour or Remington varmint in 24"will work and a good scope. You could go lighter if needed. The 6mm's work well for distance with less recoil. That's why PRS competition is going that way. The 6BR is good but mostly a reloading proposition. You could even go with the .243. If you want to get exotic the 6ARC or 6.5 Grendel will work. The .223 or .223AI will work also and be easy to shoot but wind will be a factor. A friend that owns North East Texas Tactical 1500 yd. range in Kaufman Tx. shoots a .223AI for fun and goes the distance with it but he's an expert marksman.
The heavier the ejecta the more the recoil. Muzzle brakes will help there but blast becomes problematic. Suppressors add weight but cut recoil. Everything is a tradeoff.
A stock that's light and comfortable for him to shoot will help. I'd choose a stock built for the way he intends to shoot mostly. You can shoot a bipod off a bench successfully. If he's going to shoot at distance I'd use a Mil/Mil F1 scope and it doesn't have to be a terribly expensive one with a 20MOA rail.
I'm 72++ and shoot a 6.5CM with 130gr.RDF and 130gr Berger VLD's. I shoot at 1200+ but muzzle jump is problematic to see hits so I use a brake. When I wear this Krieger barrel out I'll chamber a 6CM next.
Just my two cents.
Good Luck and enjoy your time with him.
The heavier the ejecta the more the recoil. Muzzle brakes will help there but blast becomes problematic. Suppressors add weight but cut recoil. Everything is a tradeoff.
A stock that's light and comfortable for him to shoot will help. I'd choose a stock built for the way he intends to shoot mostly. You can shoot a bipod off a bench successfully. If he's going to shoot at distance I'd use a Mil/Mil F1 scope and it doesn't have to be a terribly expensive one with a 20MOA rail.
I'm 72++ and shoot a 6.5CM with 130gr.RDF and 130gr Berger VLD's. I shoot at 1200+ but muzzle jump is problematic to see hits so I use a brake. When I wear this Krieger barrel out I'll chamber a 6CM next.
Just my two cents.
Good Luck and enjoy your time with him.
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