Besides the eyes, I gave up NRA Highpower competition because when I get into the prone position, I have a tendency to roll away on uneven ground.
The decline of metallic sights prone shooting in the US
- Thread starter jpuignau
- Start date
I remember the discussion at the matches about f class and how it would be a feeder program for palma and iron sights...... it has brought new shooters to the sport of prone shooting.
It is about marketing..... some matches are more fun than others. Some have better competition. The midrange matches in lacrosse wi are some of my favorites. The cookout and shooting after the match are as much fun as the match.... Well run match and great people.
It is about marketing..... some matches are more fun than others. Some have better competition. The midrange matches in lacrosse wi are some of my favorites. The cookout and shooting after the match are as much fun as the match.... Well run match and great people.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
I think F-class will take over for the most part. Many reasons why.
People used to shoot the way the military taught them. Now, as then, the weaponry and training are vastly different from even a generation ago.
I have my Great-grandfather's Krag. When the Spanish-American war broke out he and his cousin hopped a freight train to St Louis to join up with Teddy Roosevelt's Congress of Roughriders and Sportsmen. They were going to Koobah, they thought.
They did not read the fine print, and got their butts shipped to the Philippines instead. They were allowed to purchase those Krags, and shot NRA matches after the war ended.
That does not happen these days. Today's veterans shoot Tactical and F-class.
the one constant is change...
I have my Great-grandfather's Krag. When the Spanish-American war broke out he and his cousin hopped a freight train to St Louis to join up with Teddy Roosevelt's Congress of Roughriders and Sportsmen. They were going to Koobah, they thought.
They did not read the fine print, and got their butts shipped to the Philippines instead. They were allowed to purchase those Krags, and shot NRA matches after the war ended.
That does not happen these days. Today's veterans shoot Tactical and F-class.
the one constant is change...
CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
In south Florida it is suspect to lay on the ground. Rain, muck and "critters" can be culperts. Benchrest gets a dozen shooters. Three-gun that times three or more.
Issue there is three-gun tends to have bullets escape the backstops. It can create unwanted dangers.
Issue there is three-gun tends to have bullets escape the backstops. It can create unwanted dangers.
Shooting F-Class with a scope and a bipod is close enough to most of the deer and varmint hunting I've done in my life, so building skills in F-Class seems both interesting and useful to my buddies and I (not just a game).
Yes, we've also shot plenty of deer and varmints from field expedient positions with a scope and a bipod, so PRS-type events hold interest also. None of our hunting rifles are without scopes, so scopeless competitions hold little interest. We do use slings in field shooting, but hardly ever in the classic standing or sitting NRA high power positions. Our approaches are closer to Cooper's Art of the Rifle - always trying to get lower or steadier and making use of whatever support we can manage.
We've had great success figuring out how not to get caught in a hunting situation without support. We've won a few F-Class and precision rifle matches also. But our goal is to be riflemen more after Jeff Cooper's mold than to win games through specialized gamesmanship. The games we choose are more a means to the end of our development as riflemen.
Yes, we've also shot plenty of deer and varmints from field expedient positions with a scope and a bipod, so PRS-type events hold interest also. None of our hunting rifles are without scopes, so scopeless competitions hold little interest. We do use slings in field shooting, but hardly ever in the classic standing or sitting NRA high power positions. Our approaches are closer to Cooper's Art of the Rifle - always trying to get lower or steadier and making use of whatever support we can manage.
We've had great success figuring out how not to get caught in a hunting situation without support. We've won a few F-Class and precision rifle matches also. But our goal is to be riflemen more after Jeff Cooper's mold than to win games through specialized gamesmanship. The games we choose are more a means to the end of our development as riflemen.
This is the whole story. Much smaller military and they are trained on different guns and positions. Spray and pray versus the aimed fire of the old days.
Your view of current military training must be much different from mine. Aiming and hitting are still central. Positions have changed somewhat due to varying risk assessments and body armor - both needing positions that are workable with body armor and trying to maintain a well armored surface toward the treat being engaged.
Iron sights continue in their long, slow decline on service rifles (both military and law enforcement). They are fast becoming a tool most commonly used by specific sporting games rather than a tool employed by practical riflemen.
I guess I'm considered the young crowd. I did shoot smallbore competitively in college. This was only because the team had a Win52 and later an Anschutz I could shoot. Once I went to grad school, no rifle, no more competing.
This year I started competing again for the first time in nearly 20 years. I did F-class because I am a long range shooter and hunter and I could show up with my 243AI hunting rifle and do reasonably well. This got me hooked again so I'm building a purpose build F-class gun.
I have nothing against Palma and the like but the need for an expensive, one-purpose rifle is a real barrier. I'm a general shooter and hunter at hard and while I appreciate unsupported marksmanship that sort of game is difficult to approach.
I am more likely to take my Garand or AR15 and shoot a service rifle match. Much more likely. That serves a purpose to me. I have no other purpose for shooting 600-1000 yards with open sights than in a match, and that makes it less interesting to me. The same way I find benchrest uninteresting.
Tomorrow I'm shooting a 1200-2000 yard match with my elk rifle (338 Edge). In addition to the fun of competition it gets me more time and experience with a rifle I use for other purposes.
This year I started competing again for the first time in nearly 20 years. I did F-class because I am a long range shooter and hunter and I could show up with my 243AI hunting rifle and do reasonably well. This got me hooked again so I'm building a purpose build F-class gun.
I have nothing against Palma and the like but the need for an expensive, one-purpose rifle is a real barrier. I'm a general shooter and hunter at hard and while I appreciate unsupported marksmanship that sort of game is difficult to approach.
I am more likely to take my Garand or AR15 and shoot a service rifle match. Much more likely. That serves a purpose to me. I have no other purpose for shooting 600-1000 yards with open sights than in a match, and that makes it less interesting to me. The same way I find benchrest uninteresting.
Tomorrow I'm shooting a 1200-2000 yard match with my elk rifle (338 Edge). In addition to the fun of competition it gets me more time and experience with a rifle I use for other purposes.
So, we are in decline. What do we do? This is very similar to the benchrest discussion Alex had from the benchrest side.
Thank you Alex for adding to our discusssion.
I've never seen a benchrest match or long range match on tv?
Thank you Alex for adding to our discusssion.
I've never seen a benchrest match or long range match on tv?
I helped a buddy shoot a high power prone match recently in the new Tactical AR division. He just took the factory AR he had, we worked to find the most accurate load, and he went and shot. He didn't win, but his scores improved over the course of the day. He shot off of an improvised rest rather than a bipod, pretty much viewing the tournament as a chance to see what the rifle would do and improve his skills at 600 yards.
Most of the advice he got was geared more toward dumping money into the rifle (joining the equipment race) rather than simply working to improve his technique.
It's an interesting division. Personally, I don't even own an AR, but I could see asking my buddy to borrow his AR to give it a try. An improvised field rest (or a bipod) and a low power scope are close enough to most of my real world hunting and other shooting experience to seem worthwhile. In contrast, the other contorted positions, the sling, and the jacket of other high power disciplines hold no appeal for me.
NRA Smallbore is the same way. Let me use a scope and a bipod (or other rest) and I'm there. I contacted the Smallbore guy at one local club, and he told me nothing was available in F-Class or other use of a bipod and scope. I later found out he neglected to tell me about two recurring matches at the club that did support Smallbore F-Class. It is hard to say why he would have failed to connect me with the opportunities I was seeking at the club.
Invite a local TV station to come out and film a major event. Advancement is the major reason for change. Archery has pretty much followed the same path.
JSH
Gold $$ Contributor
Well there may be one saving grace to iron sights. 4H shooting sports. Those kids shooting 3-P do an outstanding job. The Nationals were just a few weeks back in Rodgers Arkansas. You might look and see how many teams and kids were there.
If you have a program in your area, I urge you to just go and watch. It is a real eye opener what the can do with a hybrid red rider.
Jeff
If you have a program in your area, I urge you to just go and watch. It is a real eye opener what the can do with a hybrid red rider.
Jeff
Liven The Dream
Gold $$ Contributor
Longtrain
Gold $$ Contributor
When I started F Class in 2009 there was only one or two targets designated for F Class. Now close to 6 or 7 of 15 targets at monthly matches are F Class. I shot F Class for a number of years and still shoot the occasion match, but I have gone back to irons and sling. Something about shooting 1000 yards with irons that has a magically ring to it. Bit more work, but I like it.
A decent camcorder with a 20X zoom can do OK on targets at 300-600 yards. But the panning and zooming between the firing line and the targets is a bit much for "live" broadcasts. With some E targets, one can position the monitor and carefully select the angle so both the monitor and the shooter are in the same shot without all the panning a zooming.
Most really fast growing disciplines (USPSA, Steel Challenge, Action Pistol, etc.) have enough videos on YouTube that one can watch a few and have a good feel for the organization and other match details before showing up and giving it a try.
Bayou Rifles has a few videos for their high power matches, but the target views are poor, non-existent, or shaky. Mounting that camera on a tripod would have helped a lot.
But the bottom line is I agree that high quality videos can be an important recruiting tool for new shooters.
swd
Silver $$ Contributor
January of 18'. I can see it not going into effect right away. It's one thing to pass it another to actually have the infrastructure and money to make it happen. CA is famous for that. There's a lot a lawsuits and I could see it being over turned, but then again I'm not holding my breath either.
Permit me to add my 2cents.
I'm a dedicated palmer/Target rifle shooter in Australia and I'm probably amongst the younger age brackets of our sport.
all the issues identified above in terms of declining demographics, participation rates and competition from other disciplines are faced by us in Australia and we are working overcoming them.
There is a real issues of attracting newbies and and young newbies in particular because it is a relatively specialised type of shooting with minimal application to hunting, the military and LE professions. The costs of starting are also expensive (specialised rifles, slings and jackets etc) and the learning curve can be steep. But When I first tried it 26, I was hooked though and drawn by the challenge it presented.
At our club we have successfully added about 6 new sling shooters to our ranks in the past 6-12mths (right across the demographic spectrum) and this is a reletively good result. I think we have been successful because we have sold it as a challenge and we have invested time in supporting and coaching our new shooters.
If you can differentiate the discipline and emphasise the unique challenges and rewards it offers you have a chance of capturing those who looking to do something a bit different. However, the cost and time commitments required are prohibitive in their own right and can usually deter or prevent those who might otherwise take up the sport. Especially guys and girls in the younger age bracket.
My perspective for what it's worth.
Cheers
I'm a dedicated palmer/Target rifle shooter in Australia and I'm probably amongst the younger age brackets of our sport.
all the issues identified above in terms of declining demographics, participation rates and competition from other disciplines are faced by us in Australia and we are working overcoming them.
There is a real issues of attracting newbies and and young newbies in particular because it is a relatively specialised type of shooting with minimal application to hunting, the military and LE professions. The costs of starting are also expensive (specialised rifles, slings and jackets etc) and the learning curve can be steep. But When I first tried it 26, I was hooked though and drawn by the challenge it presented.
At our club we have successfully added about 6 new sling shooters to our ranks in the past 6-12mths (right across the demographic spectrum) and this is a reletively good result. I think we have been successful because we have sold it as a challenge and we have invested time in supporting and coaching our new shooters.
If you can differentiate the discipline and emphasise the unique challenges and rewards it offers you have a chance of capturing those who looking to do something a bit different. However, the cost and time commitments required are prohibitive in their own right and can usually deter or prevent those who might otherwise take up the sport. Especially guys and girls in the younger age bracket.
My perspective for what it's worth.
Cheers
Grimstod
Machinist, Designer, and Shooter.
I would not blame aging eyes. There are plenty of young and new shooters coming on the line. More then ever really. I would blame the tactical crap pushed mainly by hollywood movies. Everyone wants a machine gun with a huge scope. For this reason PRS is exploding in popularity and iron sights are dying off.
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