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The army is adopting a new rifle and cartridge

I think most nato countries already use a 7.62x51 size rifle, “the right arm of the free world” the FAL rifle. So conversion is simple for everybody but us. We will spend mucho billions to resist a proven design and retool everything.

They did (or its competitor the H&K HK91 / Bundeswehr G3) at least until NATO agreed to follow the US in 5.56mm for personal weapons. European NATO countries adopted various 5.56mm rifles as standard as long ago as the 1990s. Finland which is looking to join NATO is an odd man out as it uses 7.62X39 as its standard rifle calibre alongside its unique RK62 Valmet rifle, a much refined AK.
 
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As for this totally new 6.8x51 cartridge, I cannot foresee as a total replacement of 5.56 NATO cartridge as this would require all of the NATO Countries to switch to the 6.8 with all new rifles. Even if the NATO Countries were to comply with maybe using the lower chamber pressure cartridge, it would still need a rifle that can operate with the 6.8 which is basically a 7.62x51 OAL. So in essence a AR10 size rifle. So I would have to believe this new rifle and cartridge would be for select military unit special weapon or a designated marksman weapon.

Since many NATO members other than the US struggle to issue enough 1st gen 5.56mm rifles to equip all of their existing troops despite huge manpower cuts since the USSR's demise 20 odd years ago, and only buy enough ammunition for barely minimal annual live fire training, it would be a major understatement to say that any call to change to new rifles for a completely different cartridge would be unpopular with America's allies. It simply won't happen!

The move from 7.62 to 5.56 still rankles deeply - not because of arguments either way as on here over their respective merits, but because it meant the premature withdrawal of millions of weapons before they were life-expired or obsolete that had only been purchased because of US pressure to change cartridges again.

It was only US Army insistence on 30-calibre / .30-06 M2 performance immediately after WW2 that had forced its NATO partners to unwillingly adopt the 7.62 and its rifles in the first place. Ironically, the British 'Ideal Calibre Panel' working group tasked with developing suitable designs for a new generation of assault rifles in the late 1940s initially identified a small '0.270 calibre' cartridge as the optimal answer to the new requirements. This was later upgraded to 7mm and even briefly adopted as the 7X43mm in 1951 as the standard UK rifle / squad MG cartridge in a vain attempt to see off American objections and insistence on a thirty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.280_British
 
"There aren't enough people in the military today that know enough about marksmanship to make up a baseball team!"

CARLOS HATHCOCK!

If there's any way it can be screwed up...the army can do it!! Like....choosing the 5.56MM pea shooter for a Service cartridge!!

The 5.56 round has stuck around for decades and multiple wars because it allowed soldiers to carry more rounds/gear than a full size battle rifle allowed. They only now want to replace it to gain the ability to defeat new armor on soldiers.

It will be interesting to see if the new gun/round are a success. They are sacrificing round count and adding weight to gain range and armor penetration.

I have never served, but I suspect I might like a marksman with the big gun around while most of my team carried M4s.
 
My son is Marine Infantry (CO of Fox 2/7 for you history buffs). Loves the improved ability of his marines to communicate in live fire situations due to suppressors lowering the din. Here he is prior to deploying with his suppressor can and laser designator attached to his M4
y4mSRal82rkZeRcm_gcxlK531BrHTKv1iR6WniY6J6-JgeJgKyuewzm8hjVNwlhZejZI3LW3v0BiAALmxB-13ZvVDt2AXcwZmPJsCPhijBD9QlcNYjQOLkJCUOeeUr6frJEAMxzypWqL66RwLDtbYqzRLW-YpMLuO4ocsCO4VO3xCUGaaIvRvSqHn-qYWUmDJYc
 
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Do you think they really with switch over. Remember the attempt to us the 6.8 SPC, it started and then the military gave it up. Could be the same with this attempt of the new .277, which is basically the same, but with the different case, to save weight, more than anything.

The problem with the 6.8SPC, 6.5 Grendel, and 6ARC is that they are limited by the size of the "AR15" magazine and the bolt. Ultimately, those constraints limit the amount of powder that can be used and the size of the bullet.

In terms of military applications, it seems like the 6ARC (very close to 243 performance) is about as far as we can get with current rifles because the AR system also has pressure limits which is why Hornady gave out "gas gun" vs "bolt gun" reloading data.

When the Army specified they wanted to beat 308 performance, it was inevitable that we would get an AR10 sized system. You cannot cheat physics.
 
The problem with the 6.8SPC, 6.5 Grendel, and 6ARC is that they are limited by the size of the "AR15" magazine and the bolt. Ultimately, those constraints limit the amount of powder that can be used and the size of the bullet.

In terms of military applications, it seems like the 6ARC (very close to 243 performance) is about as far as we can get with current rifles because the AR system also has pressure limits which is why Hornady gave out "gas gun" vs "bolt gun" reloading data.

When the Army specified they wanted to beat 308 performance, it was inevitable that we would get an AR10 sized system. You cannot cheat physics.
 
I believe you have a point, the 6MM ARC has better trajectory and wind deflection but not the energy of the 308.

The issues I see with the 6.8x51 are weight, 16 pounds is awful heavy for close in work, ammo capacity back down to less ability to carry ammo and barrel life. 80,000 PSI is not going to last as long as even the 62,325 PSI 5.56 NATO. The latter saw a significant reduction in barrel life.

I question the ability to penetrate armor at range. We'll just have to wait and see.
 
My son is Marine Infantry (CO of Fox 2/7 for you history buffs). Loves the improved ability of his marines to communicate in live fire situations due to suppressors lowering the din. Here he is prior to deploying with his suppressor can and laser designator attached to his M4
y4mSRal82rkZeRcm_gcxlK531BrHTKv1iR6WniY6J6-JgeJgKyuewzm8hjVNwlhZejZI3LW3v0BiAALmxB-13ZvVDt2AXcwZmPJsCPhijBD9QlcNYjQOLkJCUOeeUr6frJEAMxzypWqL66RwLDtbYqzRLW-YpMLuO4ocsCO4VO3xCUGaaIvRvSqHn-qYWUmDJYc
What kind of cans do they use on the M4??
 
Mothers are raising 'wussies' that can't stand a little recoil!!
Nothing in writing ever stated that the MO of the 'ground-pounder' had to use the M14 in the full-auto mode! If the military of today taught marksmanship of yore instead of 'spray and pray' it wouldn't take 50,000 fired rounds to kill one enemy soldier! We just finished a 20 year stint in a high desert, mountainous type terrain war where there was no limit as to how distant a target could be engaged while using a piss ant round designed for shooting turtles off of logs and chipmunks!
 
Nothing in writing ever stated that the MO of the 'ground-pounder' had to use the M14 in the full-auto mode!

Eh!

The definition of 'assault rifle' is of a multi-purpose selective-fire infantry personal weapon that in the 1950s was intended (and claimed) to allow a single rifle / cartridge to replace a range of others and thereby not only improve the infantryman's effectiveness, but to simplify manufacturing and logistics requirements.

The M14's prospectus as sold to the US forces, public, and government was that it was a one-shop wonder-weapon that replaced the .45 'Grease Gun' SMG, .30 Carbine M1/M2 carbines, M1 .30-06 rifle, M1918 .30-06 squad support LMG. It didn't, simply because it (and all other such 7.62 rifles such as the FAL and HK91) couldn't handle full-auto fire through excess recoil and barrel heating.

If full-auto fire wasn't an essential ingredient of the product why were millions of dollars spent on M14 development and testing that included it, and as early as 1943/44 John C. Garand and Springfield Armory given high-priority tasking to develop a 20-round magazine capacity, selective-fire uprated M1 rifle, seen as essential for standard issue to US ground forces in the planned invasion of the Japanese home islands in late 1945? (The latter project produced a viable if over-long and heavy rifle that reached working prototype stage and IIRC a primary barrier to full-issue was the conflict between the need for a large/long muzzle brake and a bayonet fitting, it being a case of one or other but not both.)

One can argue (and people inside and outside of the military have from long before assault rifles were ever dreamt of) whether such policies were correct and the mass fire v highly trained individual rifleman / precision shooting schools of tactics goes back a couple of hundred years, but the first generation of 'assault rifles' were indubitably intended to be selective-fire and infantry tactics were expected to reflect and utilise that capacity fully. In effect, Warsaw Pact countries got that capability, NATO didn't with nearly all of its first gen 7.62s issued with the full-auto mode either omitted or locked-out.
 
Eh!

The definition of 'assault rifle' is of a multi-purpose selective-fire infantry personal weapon that in the 1950s was intended (and claimed) to allow a single rifle / cartridge to replace a range of others and thereby not only improve the infantryman's effectiveness, but to simplify manufacturing and logistics requirements.

The M14's prospectus as sold to the US forces, public, and government was that it was a one-shop wonder-weapon that replaced the .45 'Grease Gun' SMG, .30 Carbine M1/M2 carbines, M1 .30-06 rifle, M1918 .30-06 squad support LMG. It didn't, simply because it (and all other such 7.62 rifles such as the FAL and HK91) couldn't handle full-auto fire through excess recoil and barrel heating.

If full-auto fire wasn't an essential ingredient of the product why were millions of dollars spent on M14 development and testing that included it, and as early as 1943/44 John C. Garand and Springfield Armory given high-priority tasking to develop a 20-round magazine capacity, selective-fire uprated M1 rifle, seen as essential for standard issue to US ground forces in the planned invasion of the Japanese home islands in late 1945? (The latter project produced a viable if over-long and heavy rifle that reached working prototype stage and IIRC a primary barrier to full-issue was the conflict between the need for a large/long muzzle brake and a bayonet fitting, it being a case of one or other but not both.)

One can argue (and people inside and outside of the military have from long before assault rifles were ever dreamt of) whether such policies were correct and the mass fire v highly trained individual rifleman / precision shooting schools of tactics goes back a couple of hundred years, but the first generation of 'assault rifles' were indubitably intended to be selective-fire and infantry tactics were expected to reflect and utilise that capacity fully. In effect, Warsaw Pact countries got that capability, NATO didn't with nearly all of its first gen 7.62s issued with the full-auto mode either omitted or locked-out.
At my age I crossed from the M2 as my secondary and a 1911 as my side arm, all the way into the M4 as secondary and the Barretta 9MM as my side arm.

First there is no one firearm fits all solution.

Second in my opinion the 7.62x51 for military applications at the time and now was and is a poor compromise. It made a good specialty round for the military and a very good hunting round.

Third precision aimed fire is less than 1/2 of 1% of military fire, close quarter engagements, other engagements within 300 yards with aimed rapid fire, suppressive fire are the vast majority of situations.

The 5.56x45 NATO from its inception unto now with the M855A1 in my opinion has been so successful that the military has been negligent in developing an improved replacement. My guess is that the 6.8x51 and the associated rifle in the end will not provide the desired result. A 16 pound rifle? PLEASE! Today the weight carried by troops vastly out classes my day, hell we didn't have body armor.

The improved alternatives such as 6MM ARC, 6.5 Grendel and 6.8SPC in the AR15 platform in my opinion all need to be pass extreme stress testing. Make 200 rifles each and beat them to death with 10,000 rounds. Then we'll know!

The 6MM ARC and 6.5 Grendel show much better promise in close and out far. For civilian use I went with the 6MM ARC, it will never see 6,000 rounds in my hands and the cartridge makes a great general purpose truck/horse back/family rifle in the AR15.

In the 90's I was playing with CMP shoots we had one guy just hated the M1 Carbine and the AR15, they were crap! PIECES OF JUNK! BB guns! The only rifles worth anything we're the M1 Garand and the M14.

As 20 years passed, so did he, it was then I found out that he served in Germany. He never used any weapon ever in any real capacity.

Let me suggest this, grab an M1 Carbine, an M4 in 5.56, an AR15 A2 in 5.56 and an M14 in 7.62x51. Run some drills, in close, out to 300 yards then out to 800 yards. Assess the needs for yourself.

From my experiance I suggest a rifle that is about 8 pounds, works in close like the M1 Carbine and extends the 5.56x45, 300 yard energy to 800 yards, bests the 308 at 800 yards in the wind and with drop. Try it yourself.

Yes in my opinion Jeff Cooper was only about 1/3 right and Rex Applegate was THE MAN!
 
The problem with the 6.8SPC, 6.5 Grendel, and 6ARC is that they are limited by the size of the "AR15" magazine and the bolt. Ultimately, those constraints limit the amount of powder that can be used and the size of the bullet.

In terms of military applications, it seems like the 6ARC (very close to 243 performance) is about as far as we can get with current rifles because the AR system also has pressure limits which is why Hornady gave out "gas gun" vs "bolt gun" reloading data.

When the Army specified they wanted to beat 308 performance, it was inevitable that we would get an AR10 sized system. You cannot cheat physics.
Interestingly the U.S. Army and some other NATO countries have adopted the AR10 pattern rifles to replace the bolt action rifles for the sniper roll. About three years ago I watched on cable TV a show about a sniper competition between several NATO Countries and all but one countries two man teams used a bolt action rifle. The rest where using a AR10 in 7.62/308 Win. Another interesting point was both shooter and spotter each where equipped with the same rifles.

As for the 6.8 SPC (Special Purpose Cartridge) was originally developed as a close distance cartridge with a higher muzzle energy for house too house and room too room clearing. In Afghanistan some of the Taliban soldier's would be doped up on opiates and it would require several hits from a 5.56 cartridge to put them down permanently. There are some hunters of medium size game that have used the 6.8 SPC with a few bullet and cartridge manufacturers who created bullets for such a hunting use.

Regarding the 6.5 Grendel, I’m not sure if Alexander Arms was trying to create a alternative cartridge for the military. The 6.5 Grendel has become fairly popular with some hunters for media size game.

The 6mm ARC cartridge is to me understanding is intended for the PRS competition as a long rang cartridge shot from AR15 pattern rifles for a faster follow up shot. As most probably know in PRS it’s partly about accuracy, but most just hitting a plate of steel for shot scores. And again the intention is not creating a alternative military cartridge. I’m not if the 6mm ARC will become a fairy popular cartridge for hunters of media size game like the 6.5 Grendel has.

The U.S. military has dabbled with AR15 pattern rifle called the Mk12 SPR (Special Purpose Rifle) firing the M262 77 gr cartridge. The intention with that rifle and cartridge combination was have a Designated Marksman (DM) in each squad or platoon with a long range rifle that could also use the SS109 or M855A1 cartridge if the DM ran out of the M262 cartridge in a single long drawn out combat engagement.

Keep in mind that current military doctrine for a rifle cartridge is not terminate the opposing military forces solider, but too wound as in incapacitate so a solider who is hit from rifle fire can not longer fight effectively. Plus a incapacitated solider usually requires two non wounded soldiers too move or evacuate the wounded, thus in theory taking three soldiers out of a combat situation.
 
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Did a little research this morning and the Sig rifle is 8.4 pounds. Add the suppressor and optic. The belt fed machine gun is about 12 pounds plus the suppressor, optic, and 50 or 100 rounds of ammo. Recoil impulse is about 2 pounds.
 
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