The 6br for F-TR and Palma, an idea who's time has come?

[JOHN708]

To my fellow competitors and 6mmbr members:

I propose including the 6br as an alternate caliber for F-TR and Palma class competition for the following reasons:

1) Accuracy, the cartridge is as accurate or more accurate than the 308.

2) Economy, with the growing cost of components the 6br is more economical to shoot. You use less powder and the bullets are as much as $10 cheaper per hundred than some of the 308 bullets commonly used in competition.

3) Recoil, almost non-existent in a 12-18 lb. rifle, making it easier for a youngster ,woman or recoil sensitive shooter to handle.

4) Wind drift, 105-108 gr. bullets with a G1 BC in the 510-550 range @ 2800 fps should more than hold their own with all but the heaviest 308 dia. bullets and be superior to the 155 gr. Palma loads.

5) Less of a need for experimentation, by keeping the max. bullet wt. in the 105-109 gr. range there won't be the need for shooters to experiment with exotic heavy bullet wt. for cartridge size combinations in an effort to gain an edge in competition.

6) The 6br is a widely used and excepted cartridge, especially in Europe, where it's the cartridge to use in 300m competition. Multiple successful loads have already been developed for it making it a very easy cartridge to load for.

So, what do you all think of my proposal?

John Skowron

 

[mao0720]

You make several valid points, however, FT/R stand for F-class TACTICAL RIFLE. And, I dont know of too many REAL WORLD tactical rifles in 6BR. All of the ballistic reasons that you pointed out the 6br is better than 308 win are all the same reasons it belongs in F-class not FT/R. Palma has been shot with a 30cal cartridge (used to be 30/06, now 308 win) for a long time and simply for nostalgia I dont think that will be changing. You can shoot 6BR in long range prone matches which are essentially Palma but with other calibers. The truth is I dont see F/TR or palma accepting any other cartridges any time soon. They are the way they are for a reason... For the increased challenge of using 308/ 223, and for the history.

 

[Steve Blair]

You make several valid points, however, FT/R stand for F-class TACTICAL RIFLE.

[br]
No, it doesn't. F-T/R is F Target Rifle and was orginally intended to allow use of a Palma rifle with bipod and scope. Sorry, no tacticool here. [br]
Attached are the NRA F-Class rules. Note the title under section 3.4(b).

 

[mao0720]

My apologies, you are correct, Target rifle it is. My arguments still stand that these classes of shooting, FT/R and Palma, should stay as they are. Any ballistic improvements should go in the appropriate open classes. Otherwise you just blur the line between FT/R and Palma classes and their respective open classes.

 

[ryanjay11]

223 and 308 only makes it hard. That is the point. Once you learn to embrace this, you will understand why we do it.

If you want to shoot a 6BR, go for it. You just shoot open.

 

[JOHN708]

Thanks for all your responses so far. Interesting arguments.

John

 

[mao0720]

Ryan, my point exactly!

 

[kelbro]

I love the challenges associated with 223, 308, and a bipod. Just started F/TR and having a blast. I do have a nice rest and I am in the process of building a 6BR so I have considered dabbling in F-Open occasionally.

 

[Killshot]

OP, your six points explain why it's a great caliber............. for F-Open.

To paraphrase Ms. T. Swift, a 6BR in F/TR is never, ever, ever going to happen....

 

[IA_shooter]

This post has answered a few questions this newbie was wondering about.

Now on the opposite side, do they allow .223 and .308 in the F-class open shoots. I assume they do, but like mama always said, never ASSUME anything, it just make an ASS out of U and ME.

 

[Steve Blair]

You may shoot any cartridge in F-Open that you can stand, caliber .35 and under. We had a guy shoot a .338 Lapua without a brake at a 3X1000 match. He looked a little fatigued at the end of match 3.

 

[Steve Blair]

Reading carefully through the list of 6 reasons...

[br]
Hear, Hear! Well said.

 

[memilanuk]

4) Wind drift, 105-108 gr. bullets with a G1 BC in the 510-550 range @ 2800 fps should more than hold their own with all but the heaviest 308 dia. bullets and be superior to the 155 gr. Palma loads.

I think you need to spend some more time examining this one... In theory, I might grant you the advantage over the 155. In reality I've seen plenty of 6 BR / Dasher shooters get blown all over the target just as bad as a .308 running 155s @ 3k. 185s, 200s, and 215s (to be honest, thats where things seem to be headed) would bury a 105 @ 'only' 2800fps when it comes to wind.

 

[treeman]

+1 leave it be.... 6br already has a place

 

[nosualc]

If you opened the door to 6BR in F-T/R, my prediction would be that in a very short time, very few would be shooting .308/.223.

I think this is absolutely spot on.

The .223 would disappear from the line and it would be 6BRs vs 308s w/heavy bullets. At mid-range the .308s would disappear too. F-T/R would become homogenous like short range benchrest (where almost everybody shots the 6PPC).

IMO, Leave it alone.

-nosualc

ps - I shoot F-Open, so my opinion is merely commentary

 

[WindSurgeon]

In F class, that is what the Open class is for. Other than the Savage 12, I don't see any production rifles in F class in 6br. I like the split in the ruling as it is. Most F-TR shooters like not having to have a full custom to compete and shooting standard, off the shelf cartridges. If there is a child or woman or just a person that does not like recoil, the .223 is hard to beat for soft shooting. I shoot an AR in F-TR and do quite well with heavy bullets single loaded. At ranges out to 600 yards, I can hold my own with the open guys shooting 6br open guns.

 

[Taildrag15X]

Need to leave it alone.....the basis of F/TR has already been mentioned which is where I (almost 40 years ago now) and a few others that I know started competitive shooting, High Power, PALMA and Service Rifle. This is the beginning, but for some it's not even thought of, they look at 1903 Springfields, Garands, M1A's and Winchester 70's with Iron Sights as if they were from outer space with the shooting coat being a space suit. Not all feel this way I know but there are too many that do, and in doing so try to change ideas, Rules and programs to fit their felt need, the "F-Class shooter". Maybe this is why so many Sling shooters don't like what's happened with F-Class, I've tried to help some of them understand the History of the Sport, but it's hard to get a message across about why some Rule written about "Sling shooting" is keeping him from doing whatever he wants.

I'd rather see it where you'd have to work up to F-Class not just compete because it's the "easy", (I'll pay for that statement, but that's the way it's been descibed to me) entry level Competition that you can shoot with your P-Dog gun, or "Belly Benchrest" in shorts and no shoes.

Me, I still like to wear a shooting coat, pull Targets and score, it's part of the Game lets leave it alone.

 

[Hombre0321]

I'd rather see it where you'd have to work up to F-Class not just compete because it's the "easy", (I'll pay for that statement, but that's the way it's been descibed to me) entry level Competition that you can shoot with your P-Dog gun, or "Belly Benchrest" in shorts and no shoes.

Mike, Ok I also think that you will and should pay for that statement, that is the Sling Shooters snobery that is way to common. Sadly so!!

Lets see were that takes us though.

I'd rather see it where you'd have to work up to F-Class not just compete because it's the "easy",

Work up to F-Class ? From were?

Me, I still like to wear a shooting coat, pull Targets and score, it's part of the Game lets leave it alone.

I don't like to wear a shooting coat, so is that OK? F-Class shooters also have to pull targets or havn't you noticed us in the pits? We also have to score so I'm not sure were that comes from.

I shoot F-Open so don't really have a dog in the F/TR fight, but I see only negatives for allowing the 6br into that game. That however should be up to the F/TR shooters. Sling Shooters and F-Open shooters should not have a say one way or the other into a game they don't play.

Roland

 

[TonyR]

Hi John.
Why couldn't North State just set up a class for this at some matches and see how much interest there is? No possibility for national records and such but we might see some new shooters that wouldn't come otherwise. Maybe limit it to unclassified and marksman to start?
I think it would be worth a try.

 

[JOHN708]

Hi Tony,

I don't have a personal interest in running a special match. As you know, I'm a sling shooter and I'm fine with F-TR just the way it is. I thought it would make for an interesting academic exercise to pose the question and see what the forum members had to say.

I think this site has a lot of smart, experienced shooters as members, whose opinions I value.


John Skowron