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Terminology question

Lucky6547

Silver $$ Contributor
Hello,
So if we assume after firing, brass springs back 0.001”, and fired brass measures x.x90” with a given comparator, then we assume the chamber is x.x91”? And for bolt action rifles, bumping the shoulder 0.002” means sizing the cases to x.x89” to give chamber clearance of 0.002”? Or does bumping the shoulder 0.002” mean set the die to make the brass measure x.x88”?
Thanks,
Ken
 
Hello,
So if we assume after firing, brass springs back 0.001”, and fired brass measures x.x90” with a given comparator, then we assume the chamber is x.x91”? And for bolt action rifles, bumping the shoulder 0.002” means sizing the cases to x.x89” to give chamber clearance of 0.002”? Or does bumping the shoulder 0.002” mean set the die to make the brass measure x.x88”?
Thanks,
Ken
This is an arbitrary measurement. Bump two thousands from actual measurement after firing. After sizing several cases check fit in chamber. You'll find some cases will fit tighter. These are cases that did not spring back the same as the others. You may want to relube and resize these cases one more time or add another half to one thousandth bump. How much lube and how fast you run the ram will influence this measurement.
 
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I also de-prime before the first measuremet.

FWIW: I use the Hornady headspace and o-give comparators. If you put the two comparators on the calipers, opposing each other, the primer can fit over the bullet o-give hole. This way, it will properly measure the shoulder without having to deprime the case first, but it does require a 2nd comparator holder.

IMG_5910.JPG
 
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What does the bolt handle tell you? In 40 years I've never measured shoulder bump. Strip the bolt and creep down with the sizing die until you get the fit you want. Confirm with a few more cases. That could be slight pressure required to close the bolt on target rifles or it falls freely under its own weight for hunting rifles.
 
If any of you have ever measured each case after sizing, especially loading 70 or more for a match, you'll be surprised what you'll see. A lot of presses that have zero variation in sizing shoulder length for five or 10 cases will show variation when sizing 70. So while we may set the die for a certain measurement, and the brass may vary a little in how much it springs back, deflection in the press is also a factor.

Because of that I size cases between .0025 and .003" and measure every one. That way there are no surprises. While I haven't seen any differences in accuracy when bumping shoulders anywhere between .001 to .003", it does seem to reduce the occasional slow bolt lift we get when cases become less springy.
 
Pausing at the top of the ram stroke for a few seconds will reduce the amount of brass spring back. And this will make the shoulder location more uniform.

If the fired case shoulder springs back .001 and you bump the shoulder back .002 you will have .003 head clearance.

HK76WCp.jpg


Then take a fired spent primer and just start the primer into the primer pocket just using your fingers. Then chamber the case and let the bolt face seat the primer. The amount the primer is protruding will be your actual head clearance, like in the image above. You will need the OAL of the case without a primer and again after reseating the primer.
 
Hello,
So if we assume after firing, brass springs back 0.001”, and fired brass measures x.x90” with a given comparator, then we assume the chamber is x.x91”? And for bolt action rifles, bumping the shoulder 0.002” means sizing the cases to x.x89” to give chamber clearance of 0.002”? Or does bumping the shoulder 0.002” mean set the die to make the brass measure x.x88”?
Thanks,
Ken
Forget about the spring-back. You're only needlessly complicating what should be a very simple measurement by worrying about something you can neither measure easily, nor control.

Any time brass is worked there will be spring-back. However, measurements taken of the brass after the work has been done are the final dimensions of the brass and do not take any amount of spring-back into account. They are simple external measurements of the physical piece of brass, nothing more. They do not take into account any information about the path or process the brass took to reach its final dimensions.

Even though brass contracts slightly in the chamber after firing, that does not necessarily mean it will always be easy to extract from the chamber, nor does it necessarily mean it will easily re-chamber without being re-sized. Sometimes fired cases go right back in, sometimes not. Although it is not the only action accomplished by a re-sizing dies (i.e. cases are constricted in their circumference as well), when you push the shoulder back .001" to .002", you are merely increasing the odds that the case will re-chamber easily, something that may or may not be true if the case had not been re-sized at all. In the scenario you outlined above, you did not measure spring-back. In fact, no direct inference was made regarding the chamber dimensions at all, although spring-back of the brass could certainly be estimated. If you really want to know the chamber dimensions, you should have a reamer print, the reamer itself, or a casting of the chamber to directly measure. Nonetheless, none of those things are necessary. We measure the brass to the shoulder datum line after firing, then set the die to reduce that measured value by .001" to .002". In other words, x.x90" >>> x.x89", or x.x88". No indirect estimate or inference of any measurement due to spring-back is necessary.
 
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I do not use a comparator to measure the chamber length off a case, I use the RCBS Precision Mic to measure a case fired 3 times, then I use a chamber measuring device I made that screws together like a bore mic and I measure the actual chamber head to datum. The outer sleeve slides so that the exact chamber length is given.
Plunger ejectors must be removed, which is a pain, but you only need to measure once.
I have them for all my rifles. Very simple design that looks similar to a go/no go gauge. It is measured off the datum and has .001” increments in it’s side from 0-10.

Cheers.
 
If any of you have ever measured each case after sizing, especially loading 70 or more for a match, you'll be surprised what you'll see. A lot of presses that have zero variation in sizing shoulder length for five or 10 cases will show variation when sizing 70. So while we may set the die for a certain measurement, and the brass may vary a little in how much it springs back, deflection in the press is also a factor.

Because of that I size cases between .0025 and .003" and measure every one. That way there are no surprises. While I haven't seen any differences in accuracy when bumping shoulders anywhere between .001 to .003", it does seem to reduce the occasional slow bolt lift we get when cases become less springy.
I wonder if when you size so many, the die heats up due to friction with all the brass, so you get a little less sizing as you go on when the die expands due to heat?
 
I wonder if when you size so many, the die heats up due to friction with all the brass, so you get a little less sizing as you go on when the die expands due to heat?
Never had a die get warm in 50 years. If you look up the coefficient of expansion for steel a 10 degree increase in temp of a 1 inch rod there is probably under 0.00001” increase in length. The lube film should prevent any brass to steel contact.
 
Here is an observation based on much personal and anecdotal evidence. When I first started in F-Open, I would size brass "normally", bumping the shoulders back about 2 thousandths or so. However, every once in awhile, I would take a loaded round and chamber it during a match for the next shot. From time to time, these cases would chamber with some resistance. Joe Regina showed me a neat little trick. He would allow the case, upon sizing, to "dwell" for 3-5 seconds while up inside the sizing die. This caused the brass case to "take a set" as it were, thereby negating the anomaly of getting tight chamberings. Since I started that process, I have not had a "tight-fitting" case yet! I can only assume that by allowing the case to dwell inside the sizing die, that may have stopped or at least GREATLY minimized the amount of "spring back". When I use this "method" and check my cases with a Whidden shoulder bump gauge, there does not appear to be any spring back. If there is, it is imperceptible with my calipers.
 
Here is an observation based on much personal and anecdotal evidence. When I first started in F-Open, I would size brass "normally", bumping the shoulders back about 2 thousandths or so. However, every once in awhile, I would take a loaded round and chamber it during a match for the next shot. From time to time, these cases would chamber with some resistance. Joe Regina showed me a neat little trick. He would allow the case, upon sizing, to "dwell" for 3-5 seconds while up inside the sizing die. This caused the brass case to "take a set" as it were, thereby negating the anomaly of getting tight chamberings. Since I started that process, I have not had a "tight-fitting" case yet! I can only assume that by allowing the case to dwell inside the sizing die, that may have stopped or at least GREATLY minimized the amount of "spring back". When I use this "method" and check my cases with a Whidden shoulder bump gauge, there does not appear to be any spring back. If there is, it is imperceptible with my calipers.

I do the same.
 
I as with many of you have used the Hornaday and similar tools to measure my bump and it works but if you used Alex Wheelers stripped Bolt method you really don’t need any tools to set your die up and it’s 100% repeatable by anyone and that can’t be said about a comparitor tool of any kind.
Wayne
 
In all of this FL die setting stuff, one thing that needs to be determined. Does the die reduce the various diameters of the body of the case? I have seen situations where a particular die would not adequately size a case with the proper amount of bump. If you have one of these situations, the die must be replaced with a smaller one. There is no other way around it, and this is why I don't like to see fellows recommending setting dies by feel, because it may be that with a bad die to chamber fit, by the time you get to the feel that you want, the shoulder will have been pushed back too far.

If I can, with a new rifle or barrel, loading at the range, I neck size, fire and measure with a comparitor until the measurement reaches a stable maximum, all this with a stout load. It is from this maximum that I set my bump.

In those cases where I have only once fired brass to work with, and I am not splitting hairs, I set the die to duplicate the measurement of the fired case and try it in the rifle. Since it usually takes more than one firing to make a case tight at the shoulder, there is no need to push the case back, given that the diameter of the body is reduced by the die. I cannot remember when the last time was that this did not work.

If I want get a really fine fix on things, from a once fired case, I deprime it and cover the bottom with Scotch tape, trimming around the head and primer pocket. This additional material usually makes the case too tight and I can sneak up on the feel that I am looking for. Of course, at the beginning I verify that the case body diameter is being reduced by sizing.

In the short range group game, typically a small set of cases are reloaded over and over throughout a match weekend, and possibly used for more than one match, with practice between. In the course of all of this firing and resizing, the brass is work hardened, and at some point the die will have to be reset because of the increase in spring back. Some years back, I forgot that my die was set for some old, well hardened brass, and started to size a set that had few firings on it, perhaps a couple past fire forming. After sizing a couple of cases I used my Harrell's bump gauge to check a fired case against one of the sized ones. The shoulder had been bumped back .0035 instead of the .001 that is my usual practice. From that point on, I always screwed my die out a bit after a range session (I always load for my PPC at the range.) to keep me from making the same mistake.

While I have not had bump consistency problems with smaller cases, I have see it happen with larger cases where the brass was thicker at the shoulder. In those situations we were able to solve the problem by what might be termed an minimal anneal. Just enough to make the bump uniform but not so much that it would be problem for magazine use in a large caliber with heavy bullets....but that is another story.
 

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