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Switching from standard to bushing dies - questions

That is so above my pay grade, I'm going to have to read it a couple times. Thanks.

Some of us know that, of the 3 components of the Holy Trinity of precision ammo (powder, seating depth and neck tension), neck tension is the most difficult to control.

I know that everyone likes to control neck tension with bushings but to me that doesn't seem like a very good way. From my way of thinking bushings transfer any variance in neck thickness to the inside of the neck where they have a direct impact on neck tension. That is not a good thing, because no matter how careful you are turning necks there will be variances, and those variances will impact neck tension.

I believe that the outside of the neck has minimal importance, as long as there is a minimum .003 neck clearance for bullet release. The only important thing is how thick the necks are because that has an influence on spring-back. IMO the part of the neck everyone should be focusing on is the inside of the neck, or more appropriately inside diameter. The inside diameter is what influences neck tension, if one can transfer neck wall variances to the outside of the case it is that much better.

So the question is: How do we control neck tension from the inside of the neck? What if instead of honing die necks (an irreversible and often problematic process because dies are hardened, not to mention that you have to be twice as accurate with a die then with a mandrel, an impossible taskfor most small machine shops) we were to use a mandrel to expand the necks to provide the desired neck tension? What would a mandrel do?

Well, ... a mandrel would control the inside diameter of a case neck much more precisely than any bushing ever can. It could also transfer neck thickness variances to the outside of the neck where it doesn't interfere with neck tension and bullet release. That's good isn't it?

I have been using mandrels for thousands of cases. The problem is that just when I have a mandrel that gives ideal neck tension (down to .0001 precision) it starts to wear, and after a couple of thousand cases it is done. Making another mandrel to .0001 precision is very difficult/not possible for most machine shops and grinding shops. So I set out to look for a solution. I eventually focused on the Hornady bullet puller collet, because that's what I had. I started using the bullet puller to hold pin gages to expand the necks to match the turner mandrel.

However, the bullet puller did not hold the pin gages as co-axially straight as I wanted, so I approached Kenny Porter ( kennethp@portersprecisionproducts.com ), who makes all kinds of things including parts for pacemakers (can you think of anything more critical?). I told him I wanted him to make a die for me that would hold a pin gage, actually a range of pin gages ie .305, .306, .307, .308 and .309. Once I showed him what I had in mind he made a leap to a collet that is ideally suited for what I wanted. The collet holds the cutting bit for a CNC machine. It has real holding power. Here’ the mandrel die that Kenny Porter made for me.


neck-expanding-die-1-jpg.1019762



neck-expanding-die-3-jpg.1019763




Pin gages are small tubes 2" long and can be bought for a few dollars and they are available in dimensions as exact as .0001 (+/- .00002). They generally have a 60 to 62 Rockwell hardness, like tool steel. They are ideal for this purpose, all you have to do is bevel the tip. To bevel the tip all I do is chuck the mandrel in a drill and spin it against a grinding stone until I get the tip that I desire. Takes less than 5 minutes.


Now, when I need a new mandrel I buy a Vermont Gage pin gauge. If you’re looking for +/- .0002 precision they are round $3 each. If you really want to get precise and have a mandrel to .0001 (+/- .00002) precision then the price jumps to around $18 and you’ll have to order directly from Vermont Gage. For $18 you get a mandrel and a certificate of accuracy and the name of the guy that inspected and when.

This mandrel die makes all other mandrel dies I have seen or bought look primitive.

Joe
 
Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor cases with case head separations are about as common as photoshopped ladies on the Internet. I literally see someone post about it very regularly. The solution is to buy better brass...

It might seem like it costs more, but when you can fire it 20 or 30 times it starts to make sense....

I’m sure you knew that, just a friendly reminder.
Simple math.
If a lapua case costs Jimmy $1 each piece.
And Sally gets to shoot jimmy's hand loads 20 times. How much did Jimmy spend on brass so Sally could shoot jimmy's loads?

A nickle. Seems petty reasonable to me.
 
Simple math.
If a lapua case costs Jimmy $1 each piece.
And Sally gets to shoot jimmy's hand loads 20 times. How much did Jimmy spend on brass so Sally could shoot jimmy's loads?

A nickle. Seems petty reasonable to me.

I have no problem buying lapua brass and the last thing it's about is cost. Hell I have a box of it for 338LM (now that's expensive) and a couple boxes for .308 (.308 seems to have come down on price since a few years ago). Somehow I got a deal on 500 pieces of Hornady and in talking to others they've had no issues with it. I just want to know if it's me or the brass.
 
Simple math.
If a lapua case costs Jimmy $1 each piece.
And Sally gets to shoot jimmy's hand loads 20 times. How much did Jimmy spend on brass so Sally could shoot jimmy's loads?

A nickle. Seems petty reasonable to me.

What are you getting at?
 
What are you getting at?
Ok now let's look at hornady brass.
With my special bday pricing from midway.
Hornady 6.5 will cost me .49 a piece.
If I only get say 5 firings. Works out to just under a dime per case over its life expectancy.
So Clancy you are most definitely right. Shoot the good stuff. It's cheaper in the long run.
Hornady scored another one on marketing here would you say?
 
Some of us know that, of the 3 components of the Holy Trinity of precision ammo (powder, seating depth and neck tension), neck tension is the most difficult to control.

I know that everyone likes to control neck tension with bushings but to me that doesn't seem like a very good way. From my way of thinking bushings transfer any variance in neck thickness to the inside of the neck where they have a direct impact on neck tension. That is not a good thing, because no matter how careful you are turning necks there will be variances, and those variances will impact neck tension.

I believe that the outside of the neck has minimal importance, as long as there is a minimum .003 neck clearance for bullet release. The only important thing is how thick the necks are because that has an influence on spring-back. IMO the part of the neck everyone should be focusing on is the inside of the neck, or more appropriately inside diameter. The inside diameter is what influences neck tension, if one can transfer neck wall variances to the outside of the case it is that much better.

So the question is: How do we control neck tension from the inside of the neck? What if instead of honing die necks (an irreversible and often problematic process because dies are hardened, not to mention that you have to be twice as accurate with a die then with a mandrel, an impossible taskfor most small machine shops) we were to use a mandrel to expand the necks to provide the desired neck tension? What would a mandrel do?

Well, ... a mandrel would control the inside diameter of a case neck much more precisely than any bushing ever can. It could also transfer neck thickness variances to the outside of the neck where it doesn't interfere with neck tension and bullet release. That's good isn't it?

I have been using mandrels for thousands of cases. The problem is that just when I have a mandrel that gives ideal neck tension (down to .0001 precision) it starts to wear, and after a couple of thousand cases it is done. Making another mandrel to .0001 precision is very difficult/not possible for most machine shops and grinding shops. So I set out to look for a solution. I eventually focused on the Hornady bullet puller collet, because that's what I had. I started using the bullet puller to hold pin gages to expand the necks to match the turner mandrel.

However, the bullet puller did not hold the pin gages as co-axially straight as I wanted, so I approached Kenny Porter ( kennethp@portersprecisionproducts.com ), who makes all kinds of things including parts for pacemakers (can you think of anything more critical?). I told him I wanted him to make a die for me that would hold a pin gage, actually a range of pin gages ie .305, .306, .307, .308 and .309. Once I showed him what I had in mind he made a leap to a collet that is ideally suited for what I wanted. The collet holds the cutting bit for a CNC machine. It has real holding power. Here’ the mandrel die that Kenny Porter made for me.


neck-expanding-die-1-jpg.1019762



neck-expanding-die-3-jpg.1019763




Pin gages are small tubes 2" long and can be bought for a few dollars and they are available in dimensions as exact as .0001 (+/- .00002). They generally have a 60 to 62 Rockwell hardness, like tool steel. They are ideal for this purpose, all you have to do is bevel the tip. To bevel the tip all I do is chuck the mandrel in a drill and spin it against a grinding stone until I get the tip that I desire. Takes less than 5 minutes.


Now, when I need a new mandrel I buy a Vermont Gage pin gauge. If you’re looking for +/- .0002 precision they are round $3 each. If you really want to get precise and have a mandrel to .0001 (+/- .00002) precision then the price jumps to around $18 and you’ll have to order directly from Vermont Gage. For $18 you get a mandrel and a certificate of accuracy and the name of the guy that inspected and when.

This mandrel die makes all other mandrel dies I have seen or bought look primitive.

Joe
Joel, im liking that expander die.
What did it cost to have it built, and can we get 1 Also?
Brett
 
...Lately it seems like the expander ball requires more force to be pulled out of the case. I can only assume that the neck is getting sized down too much...

Check for donuts (tight spot at your neck-shoulder junction inside your brass necks). This was a first sign of donuts forming on one of my rifles. The end result was eventually over-pressure and a case-head separation. Not saying it is the most likely issue, but something to check off the list of possibilities.
 
Yes, Kenny will make a mandrel die for you. I believe he charges around $130 for it. Mine cost more because it was a prototype, but it was worth it to me. All I had to tell him is which caliber I wanted and he worked out the rest.


You can reach him at kennethp@portersprecisionproducts.com


Joe

I got mine (cant remember the price) and got mandrels in .0005 dia ranging over several thou (10 total i think) from each side kenny supplied. It was a pleasure dealing with him and quick. Just send him an email. Got the vermont pin gages from ebay
 

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