Surplus ammo is junk! Here is proof

[stool]

shooting corrosive ammo DOES NOT RUIN bbl's, failing to clean right after shooting corrosive ammo does.

take some warm to hot soapy or not water to the range with you, when done shooting remove the bolt, pour a bit of water on the bolt face, and the rest down the bore from the breech end.( here is where bayonets come in handy as a rifle stand...put the bayonet on and jam the rifle in the ground, let the water drain for a bit and then wash down with wd40. when you get home clean as normal.
the warmer the day, the more humid, the faster the salts attack.

It is what it is! I certainly hope you didn't shoot any of this crap in that beautiful rifle you had pictures of on this site. I in my youth was given a mauser 8mm and some ammo. I had no idea that there was such a thing as corrosive ammo and ruined the barrel. When I found out what I had done it was the first rifle I rebarreled my self. I gave it to the son of a guy I work with and he is learning to shoot it. I have a thing for surplus ammo and wont use it on anything ever again. But good luck, don't wreck a good gun on junk ammo when you know how to make your own.

 

[Grimstod]

It is what it is! I certainly hope you didn't shoot any of this crap in that beautiful rifle you had pictures of on this site. I in my youth was given a mauser 8mm and some ammo. I had no idea that there was such a thing as corrosive ammo and ruined the barrel. When I found out what I had done it was the first rifle I rebarreled my self. I gave it to the son of a guy I work with and he is learning to shoot it. I have a thing for surplus ammo and wont use it on anything ever again. But good luck, don't wreck a good gun on junk ammo when you know how to make your own.

Don't worry I don't shoot surplus in Smyert Mk3 that gun gets hand loads only.

The guns that I do shoot corrosive through get cleaned at the range emediatly. I had to rebarrel the gun I will be shooting in this next video.

 

[ebb]

What does hot soapy water do to the wood stock? And if the gun is bedded went the wood moves ( warps , cracks , swells ) what does that do to the bedding. Even if its not bedded the wood moves and moves the contact points on the stock. I use Windex on black powder guns or the black powder solvent, hopefully better than soapy water but I don't know. Corrosive ammo was necessary long ago but no more, I refuse to use it. It is to rough on guns and they are my passion. The only reason I can see to use the stuff is cause its cheap. I prefer to reload, I hope you will to. And I love the rifle you built, and I love that you took the NON well beaten path and made it work any way.

 

[BigDMT]

I remember a handful of years back when I took my step-father out to the range to test loads in his "sporterized" Lee Enfield 303 British military surplus rifle that he has hunted with for decades. We were testing with 150gr Sierra MK's in new brass. It was awful for hunting standards the first go round. The best 3 shot group was a little over 4"at 100 yards. The worst about 11"-12". Pretty good for WWII battlefield standards, not so good for hunting past 100-200 yards.

After examining the fired cases I noticed that his chamber had a crazy amount of excessive headspace! I know these rifles were designed that way to have reliable feeding when full of dirt, water, or mud when mixed together, but it was a lot. The shoulders were literally blowing forward over 1/8", maybe closer to 3/16". The neck diameters were extremely excessive after firing as well.

So the next time I loaded the now fired brass, I did not knock the shoulder back and only sized half of the neck This left a pressty good bulge in the bottom half of the neck, but I knew it would help allow the bullet to take off while more centered on the bore. We went to the range again and experienced a few 3"-4" groups, but then we hit the jackpot!!! Using IMR 4895 we were able to get a group at 100 yards that measured right at about 1.25"! All things considered, and with what we were seeing for accuracy so far, we thought that group was a miracle! We stopped there and that is the recipe I still load for him today. Sometimes it will put up a 2" group with that load, but that could be the shooter, It never goes beyond that though. So for a military rifle, a person can't expect the world even when handloading. They are what they are, sometimes they shoot with acceptable hunting accuracy, but a lot of times they won't. Just the nature of the beast...

 

[stool]

i do not shoot milsurplus ammo as a rule...SWISS GP11 IS THE EXCEPTION as is yogo and chinese 7.62x39.
i shoot these rifles in competitiom with the exception of one that was built to prove just how good a stock mn bbl and reciever can shoot,
but there are lots of $100 rifles out there and guys that go blasting on the weekends with tins of 440 rd that run under $100....
tons of them....they do not bed their $100 rifles....i do not know any one that shoot milsurplus ammo that bed's the gun.
most of my milsurplus class shooting requires STOCK rifles....no bedding..i took second overall last year in our 200yds matches..mostly shooting cast bullets!

just because you do not do something, because you made a mistake at an early age does not mean the rest of the world has or will stop shooting corrosive milsurplus ammo...
aint gonna happen...so just clean it correctly.
its cheap , its fun....

What does hot soapy water do to the wood stock? And if the gun is bedded went the wood moves ( warps , cracks , swells ) what does that do to the bedding. Even if its not bedded the wood moves and moves the contact points on the stock. I use Windex on black powder guns or the black powder solvent, hopefully better than soapy water but I don't know. Corrosive ammo was necessary long ago but no more, I refuse to use it. It is to rough on guns and they are my passion. The only reason I can see to use the stuff is cause its cheap. I prefer to reload, I hope you will to. And I love the rifle you built, and I love that you took the NON well beaten path and made it work any way.

 

[Grimstod]

Here is the second half.
[youtube]http://youtu.be/mHaM80VG_N4[/youtube]

 

[Eddie Harren]

One of the most scientifically conducted experiments that I have ever seen. That's what makes this site what it is. Thank you.

 

[stool]

if shooting prone, off two boat cushions is "scientific" i'll pass.

 

[stool]

this is a target i shot from a shortened 91/30.
the bullet is nothing but a hornady 150 gr hunting bullet
the target has 6 groups....the lower right group was shot at 25yds while sighting in ..which told me the rifle had some potential.

the small group (#2) on the target is 0.365" three shots at 100 yds from a shortened(24") original mn bbl in its original receiver.

the target lists the loads n135 in lapua brass. loaded with a lee hand loader
6-18 nikon scope and an m1d cheek pad, of the bench

grp 1 is the only five shot group..i was still dialing in the scope....
this was just a load development step, so just three shot groups

 

[Grimstod]

if shooting prone, off two boat cushions is "scientific" i'll pass.

My choice of shooting prone was because this is the way it would have been done by the Russians in WW2 (- the pillows) with this ammo. If I wanted to shoot from a bench with a real gun like the one pictured below it would have negated the intended purpose of the video. The purpose was to make people aware that Surplus isn't supper accurate and why. Surplus is for quick on the spot shooting not getting comfortable like this. It works find just don't ask it to do something that it wasn't intended to do.

 

[stool]

SO WE AGREE ?? it is not scientific....
and how many of the 22 MILLION MN'S had scopes ??
( and does your custom mn have an orginal milsurplus bbl on it ??)

my small group from that rifle is 0.257....

as long as we are both shooting mn's life is good...

if shooting prone, off two boat cushions is "scientific" i'll pass.

My choice of shooting prone was because this is the way it would have been done by the Russians in WW2 (- the pillows) with this ammo. If I wanted to shoot from a bench with a real gun like the one pictured below it would have negated the intended purpose of the video. The purpose was to make people aware that Surplus isn't supper accurate and why. Surplus is for quick on the spot shooting not getting comfortable like this. It works find just don't ask it to do something that it wasn't intended to do.

 

[2506]

Something also to take into account with 7.62X54R ammo is that most of it has bullets .310 diameter and the rifles had bores anywhere from .310 to .314 WHEN THEY WERE MADE. It depends on if it was during war time production or not as to the quality of the rifle and the specks on bore size as to tool wear etc. Plus you have to take into account that it gets REALLY COLD in Russia and metal shrinks thus making the bores tighter. This ammo had to work in anything from machine guns to M/N rifles in any condition and weather. I have a good number of different models of the M/Ns and they all shoot astoundingly accurate WITH PROPER HAND LOADS. First thing I do is slug the bore to see what diameter bullet it needs. If it measures .310 to .311 then they get .311 bullets. If they measure .311 to .312 then they get .312 bullets. If they measure over .312 they get to find a new home someplace else because they will not shoot accurately with jacketed bullets.
This load shoots very accurate in most M/Ns. 50 grs AA 4350, Prvi or Lupua case, CCI 200 primer, .311 Sierra 174 match or 180 SP OAL 3.000 or .312 Hornady 174 RNSP OAL 2.790 and this is important to accuracy. Use a Lee Factory Crimp Die on all loads. I don't know why but have my thoughts on why but loads are more accurate with the crimp compared to those without.

 

[stool]

the crimp die PROBABLY helps with ignition for ammo that is not loaded to the lands.
i load all my mn's to the lands and HAVE NEVER crimped.
i agree bullets need to fit the bbl.
for tired bores try hornady's 174 rn..basically full body length is bore dia..lots of engagement.

Something also to take into account with 7.62X54R ammo is that most of it has bullets .310 diameter and the rifles had bores anywhere from .310 to .314 WHEN THEY WERE MADE. It depends on if it was during war time production or not as to the quality of the rifle and the specks on bore size as to tool wear etc. Plus you have to take into account that it gets REALLY COLD in Russia and metal shrinks thus making the bores tighter. This ammo had to work in anything from machine guns to M/N rifles in any condition and weather. I have a good number of different models of the M/Ns and they all shoot astoundingly accurate WITH PROPER HAND LOADS. First thing I do is slug the bore to see what diameter bullet it needs. If it measures .310 to .311 then they get .311 bullets. If they measure .311 to .312 then they get .312 bullets. If they measure over .312 they get to find a new home someplace else because they will not shoot accurately with jacketed bullets.
This load shoots very accurate in most M/Ns. 50 grs AA 4350, Prvi or Lupua case, CCI 200 primer, .312 Sierra 174 match or 180 SP OAL 3.000 or .312 Hornady 174 RNSP OAL 2.790 and this is important to accuracy. Use a Lee Factory Crimp Die on all loads. I don't know why but have my thoughts on why but loads are more accurate with the crimp compared to those without.

 

[bigedp51]

One thing you are forgetting is that military rifles are tuned to issued ammunition to a minimum group size at 100 yards. Military rifles used in competition are "tuned" even further by bedding and changing the up pressure at the fore end tip. A No.4 Enfield rifle had a range of 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip to "tune the rifle" to change barrel vibrations.

Without a manual written in English for the Mosin (noisy magot) you have no idea what the bedding requirements for a standard issued combat rifle was or a sniper rifle. Also you will not have a manual for the Mosins rifles used in competition and their bedding methods.

But I'm sorry to say your testing means nothing without a rifle that has been worked on by a Russian or communist bloc armourer to shoot tight groups. This is why I pointed out earlier about the Enfield rifle and manuals written in the English language.

Any No.4 Enfield rifle sent to Holland and Holland for conversion to a No.4 (T) sniper rifle was rejected out right and sent back to their owning organzation if the rifle did not have the required 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip. Meaning if the Enfield rifle wasn't bedded properly Holland and Holland wouldn't waste their time trying to made a bad rifle shoot better.

Simple put you "mosin sniper" has paper shims under the receiver to compensate for wood crush on a worn out stock and a properly bedded Mosin would shoot much better. Also you are shooting two different bullet weights and your "match grade" ammunition shot no better than standard ammunition which proves my point. Your Mosin needs bedding work and maybe even a new barrel before your tests mean anything in real world testing.

The title of your posting should be "Is my surplus ammunition junk or is my mock Mosin sniper rifle junk?"

 

[Grimstod]

Stool I was about to say the same thing.Crimping is not necessary nore does it truly help accuracy. I have proven this over at socamo to they guys there but all of them still crimp ??? why is beyond me.

2506 just start loading longer so your bullets are into the lands. You will see a great improvement and you will not have to distort your bullets with the crimp.

 

[Grimstod]

One thing you are forgetting is that military rifles are tuned to issued ammunition to a minimum group size at 100 yards. Military rifles used in competition are "tuned" even further by bedding and changing the up pressure at the fore end tip. A No.4 Enfield rifle had a range of 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip to "tune the rifle" to change barrel vibrations.

Without a manual written in English for the Mosin (noisy magot) you have no idea what the bedding requirements for a standard issued combat rifle was or a sniper rifle. Also you will not have a manual for the Mosins rifles used in competition and their bedding methods.

But I'm sorry to say your testing means nothing without a rifle that has been worked on by a Russian or communist bloc armourer to shoot tight groups. This is why I pointed out earlier about the Enfield rifle and manuals written in the English language.

Any No.4 Enfield rifle sent to Holland and Holland for conversion to a No.4 (T) sniper rifle was rejected out right and sent back to their owning organzation if the rifle did not have the required 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip. Meaning if the Enfield rifle wasn't bedded properly Holland and Holland wouldn't waste their time trying to made a bad rifle shoot better.

Simple put you "mosin sniper" has paper shims under the receiver to compensate for wood crush on a worn out stock and a properly bedded Mosin would shoot much better. Also you are shooting two different bullet weights and your "match grade" ammunition shot no better than standard ammunition which proves my point. Your Mosin needs bedding work and maybe even a new barrel before your tests mean anything in real world testing.

The title of your posting should be "Is my surplus ammunition junk or is my mock Mosin sniper rifle junk?"

bigdedp here is a translation of the mosin manual. Stick to your Enfields you seem to be better with them.

https://archive.org/details/firearms-mosin-nagant-1891-1910-1891-30-1938--1944-rifles-carabines-a

 

[Ggmac]

Grim , man mosins are a rock , surplus ammo sucks ,and I do not clean my guns too much either ! But I have been known to fib a little . I just picked up some surplus Fin exp. 7.62x 53 ammo , excellent accuracy , stays above 1300 fps at 1500 yds , its fin stabilized , high pressure gas assisted velocity assistance ( at 800 yds) hollow core , probably helium filled , and uses no traditional gunpowder . It uses hydrogen , with a coating to slow the burn . Stictly space age stuff . Oh ya , $80 , 80 year old Mosins rock . Oh well shift change , new nurse on tonight . Cant wait to tell her about the time I was abducted by aliens .
All in fun , far from the dark side of the moon , Gary

 

[Grimstod]

Grim , man mosins rock , surplus ammo sucks ,and I do not clean my guns too much either ! But I have been known to fib a little . I just picked up some surplus Fin exp. 7.62x 53 ammo , excellent accuracy , stays above 1300 fps at 1500 yds , its fin stabilized , high pressure gas assisted velocity assistance ( at 800 yds) hollow core , probably helium filled , and uses no traditional gunpowder . It uses hydrogen , with a coating to slow the burn . Stictly space age stuff . Oh ya , $80 , 80 year old Mosins rock . Oh well shift change , new nurse on tonight . Cant wait to tell her about the time I was abducted by aliens .
All in fun , far from the dark side of the moon , Gary

lol I got a good laugh out of that. ;D ;D
When you stop laughing at yourself thats when your in trouble.

 

[bigedp51]

bigdedp here is a translation of the mosin manual. Stick to your Enfields you seem to be better with them.

https://archive.org/details/firearms-mosin-nagant-1891-1910-1891-30-1938--1944-rifles-carabines-a

Show me where the translated manual tells you the proper bedding procedures for a standard Mosin rifle or bedding for competition shooting at the link you posted.

All you did was post a link with a basic description of the rifle, WHERE are your maintenance manuals?

Below are examples of maintenance manuals and bedding the Enfield rifle for competition and just two of many manuals donated by myself on the Enfield rifle.

1991 No.4 (All Marks) .303 Rifle Manuals (Complete Set)
http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=335-1991-No.4-(All-Marks)-.303-Rifle-Manuals-(Complete-Set)

The Canadian Marksman (Bedding the 7.62mm No.4 Rifle) - 1965
http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=305-The-Canadian-Marksman-(Bedding-the-7.62mm-No.4-Rifle)-1965

Now show the forum members here a manual you have on bedding the Mosin rifle and any other technical manual on the Mosin rifle, and that YOU know the proper bedding methods for the Mosin you are shooting.

How can you post "Surplus ammo is junk! Here is proof" by shooting it out of just one rifle of unknown condition? Do you have any manuals on inspection standards for your Mosin rifle? Does your mock Mosin sniper have matching numbers on the rifle, scope and scope mounts? How many Mosins did you shoot this ammunition out of for testing purposes. And what makes you think you can dissemble this ammunition then just reseat the bullet and make it shoot better than before you took it apart.

The real question here is what are you trying to prove with one questionable rifle and ammunition you broke down and put back together for testing?

 

[Grimstod]

Here is your english translation of the accurizing page. There more info on 7.62x54r.net then any enfield website.
sorry I could not resist in good humor.

And here is another book. There are lots of book out there for Mosins.
http://www.amazon.com/Soviet-Mosin-Nagant-Manual-Terence-Lapin/dp/0967689600