DaveTooley
Gold $$ Contributor
Rebarreled a Sig Cross with an 18 1/2" Bartlein 6.5 CM. I get over 2800 FPS shooting Hornady 135 gr. ATips suppressed. Love it. I wouldn't hesitate to take a 400 yd. shot as long as the wind was manageable.
Suppressors and short barreled hunting rifles
- Thread starter jhsjhs
- Start date
HandgunHTR
Gold $$ Contributor
When I decided to do this a couple of years ago, I settled on a 708AI with a 19.5" barrel (Tikka action). I am able to get 2800 fps with a Hornady 162 grain ELD-X and Varget. That combo will take anything in North America reliably at 400 yards and in.
I'll take a swing... and most likely be branded a Heretic.
If you are trying to balance suppression and barrel length then make your barrel 2 inches longer for greater velocity and offset this by shedding 2 inches of suppressor length by using the 7" TDB. Your TBD's are rated for up to 300 Win Mag... so no problem. You are looking to quiet the bang and you are balancing length. The extra 2" of barrel has 3 advantages: (1) increase in velocity; (2) decrease amount of unburned powder thrown into your can to potentially create a second detonation; and (3) less report/bang to suppress.
As far as calibers - this boils down to shooting distance and size of prey. When I was deer hunting as a kid, a 243 Win. was considered a caliber for women and children, and men shot 30-06, 270, or 7 Rem Mag at 120lbs whitetail standing 100 yards away. Now, a .308 is considered a big caliber...same amount of powder in a 243... times change. A .308 out of a 18"-20" tube leave a lot of velocity on the table and unspent powder thrown down the barrel. Yes, it can get the job done, but it isn't very efficient...but some shooters have bought in to the idea that they must use a big heavy bullet. If you are talking about prey that is 300lbs or less then there are a bunch of smaller cartridges shooting lighter bullets (110gr - 130gr) that will be perfect from 0 - 400 yards. Also, these smaller cartridges can also take advantage of the AR15 platform or a smaller mini action bolt rifle, such as CZ 527 or Howa Mini 1500. I realize that what I am proposing takes a change in mindset, and not everyone easily makes the leap of faith without first trying a coupe of these calibers in person.
For a hunting rig I prefer a caliber that I can always buy ammo off the shelf... nothing worse then taking a trip to find that your custom reloads are sitting on kitchen table back home, and you don't have any way to buy ammo to make your gun shoot. Ask me how I know. For this reason, my field guns are chambered in calibers that I can readily find ammo no matter where I am. Also, under the SHTF..aka Ammo shortage, find a caliber that is popular enough that you might be able to find ammo. Yes, this leaves a bunch of great cartridges, such as 30BR and 7-08, and whatever flavor of WSM cartridges you might fancy off the list... can't easily source ammo.
I shoot hogs (125lbs-350lbs) most shots are within 100 yards. I expect them to drop with one shot. Under 150 yards the 300BO with 16"-18" barrel shooting shooting 110gr - 125gr bullets at 2,400 fps is hard to beat with no excess powder or recoil. This makes it a gem to shoot in close to populated areas without raising any eyebrows. This is the sweet spot for this caliber, especially out of an AR platform.
150 - 400 yards then then 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel. 115gr - 130gr bullet traveling at 2,500 - 2,650 fps with 20" barrel. Either of these two cartridges are great from a bolt rifle or AR15. I favor the 6.5 Grendel because of efficiency of case design and large selection of bullets for reloading.
If you feel the need to go to a midsize cartridge then it's a toss up at those ranges between 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor for hunting purposes out of a shorter barrel (18" - 20"). Since your 7" TBD in 6.5mm, I would lean toward a 6.5 Creedmoor, because it's velocity more than bullet weight that is the killer. Honestly, 6.5 Grendel will do all you want with a lot less powder, 32 grains in Grendel compared to 45 grains in Creedmoor, and much less recoil.
Note: My list is fairly straight forward with proven, commercially available cartridges that I can easily go to local store and buy ammo. I have no interest in a rebated rim case (22 Nosler, 350 Legend, 450/458 Socom, etc.), compressed/high pressures loads (224 Valkyrie), or extreme high BC bullets that have tendency not to expand (6mm ARC).
If I have offended anyone's favorite cartridge, please accept my humble apology.
If you are trying to balance suppression and barrel length then make your barrel 2 inches longer for greater velocity and offset this by shedding 2 inches of suppressor length by using the 7" TDB. Your TBD's are rated for up to 300 Win Mag... so no problem. You are looking to quiet the bang and you are balancing length. The extra 2" of barrel has 3 advantages: (1) increase in velocity; (2) decrease amount of unburned powder thrown into your can to potentially create a second detonation; and (3) less report/bang to suppress.
As far as calibers - this boils down to shooting distance and size of prey. When I was deer hunting as a kid, a 243 Win. was considered a caliber for women and children, and men shot 30-06, 270, or 7 Rem Mag at 120lbs whitetail standing 100 yards away. Now, a .308 is considered a big caliber...same amount of powder in a 243... times change. A .308 out of a 18"-20" tube leave a lot of velocity on the table and unspent powder thrown down the barrel. Yes, it can get the job done, but it isn't very efficient...but some shooters have bought in to the idea that they must use a big heavy bullet. If you are talking about prey that is 300lbs or less then there are a bunch of smaller cartridges shooting lighter bullets (110gr - 130gr) that will be perfect from 0 - 400 yards. Also, these smaller cartridges can also take advantage of the AR15 platform or a smaller mini action bolt rifle, such as CZ 527 or Howa Mini 1500. I realize that what I am proposing takes a change in mindset, and not everyone easily makes the leap of faith without first trying a coupe of these calibers in person.
For a hunting rig I prefer a caliber that I can always buy ammo off the shelf... nothing worse then taking a trip to find that your custom reloads are sitting on kitchen table back home, and you don't have any way to buy ammo to make your gun shoot. Ask me how I know. For this reason, my field guns are chambered in calibers that I can readily find ammo no matter where I am. Also, under the SHTF..aka Ammo shortage, find a caliber that is popular enough that you might be able to find ammo. Yes, this leaves a bunch of great cartridges, such as 30BR and 7-08, and whatever flavor of WSM cartridges you might fancy off the list... can't easily source ammo.
I shoot hogs (125lbs-350lbs) most shots are within 100 yards. I expect them to drop with one shot. Under 150 yards the 300BO with 16"-18" barrel shooting shooting 110gr - 125gr bullets at 2,400 fps is hard to beat with no excess powder or recoil. This makes it a gem to shoot in close to populated areas without raising any eyebrows. This is the sweet spot for this caliber, especially out of an AR platform.
150 - 400 yards then then 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel. 115gr - 130gr bullet traveling at 2,500 - 2,650 fps with 20" barrel. Either of these two cartridges are great from a bolt rifle or AR15. I favor the 6.5 Grendel because of efficiency of case design and large selection of bullets for reloading.
If you feel the need to go to a midsize cartridge then it's a toss up at those ranges between 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor for hunting purposes out of a shorter barrel (18" - 20"). Since your 7" TBD in 6.5mm, I would lean toward a 6.5 Creedmoor, because it's velocity more than bullet weight that is the killer. Honestly, 6.5 Grendel will do all you want with a lot less powder, 32 grains in Grendel compared to 45 grains in Creedmoor, and much less recoil.
Note: My list is fairly straight forward with proven, commercially available cartridges that I can easily go to local store and buy ammo. I have no interest in a rebated rim case (22 Nosler, 350 Legend, 450/458 Socom, etc.), compressed/high pressures loads (224 Valkyrie), or extreme high BC bullets that have tendency not to expand (6mm ARC).
If I have offended anyone's favorite cartridge, please accept my humble apology.
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I would go with a regular barrel length and screw the suppressor on once I was in the blind. My favorite suppressor is the Banish. The 30-cal can be run as a 7" can, or you can screw on a 2" extension and run it as a 9". This is a Banish 223, but it looks exactly like the Banish 30 in 7" configuration.
I shoot a 20 inch 6.5x47 with an AAC- SDN6 suppressor. Using the Berger 130 VLD hunting bullet. Average velocity is 2755. Extremely accurate round. Works great for me in Georgia/Alabama. Has over 1000 lbs of energy out to 600 yards according to my ballistic calculator. Only issue is you must handload the ammo.
We hunt in deep south Texas. All my grandsons shoot Suppressed Remington 700s in .308 with 20" barrels. The bucks range from 175-200# on the hoof. The boys have killed 12 bucks in the last few years without ever losing one. Distances ranged from 100 yds - 300 yds. The old 308 is way underrated with all the new magnums around!
My opinion, now just an opinion, at what point is the juice no longer worth the scheez? Going with a Mag caliber in that set up is not worth it. as dirtysteve said. You are loosing so much horsepower with that short of a barrel that to me it does not make the sense to try ramping up the speed. I totally understand what you are looking for, but I would be leaning more on the accuracy side of the house in a rig like that. I would look at what rounds do the best with the barrel length you are looking for. 308 is the first that comes to mind. I have a 18" bolt gun and out of the nearly 100 firearms I own, it would be my go to gun if I had to make the shot, with in a reasonable range. (500 and in) 6.5 Grendel, 6 ARC, anything in the 08 family and im sure there are others out there that would be ideal for your application. I would just focus more on accuracy then horsepower at this point. A well placed shot will out rank knock down power in my book any day!
Again, just my opinion.
Again, just my opinion.
I have several shortys and my personal favorite is my 16" 6 creedmoor. 100 grain badlands bulldozers @ 2900fps do just great on deer well past 400yds. I also run the factory hornady 108 match ammo. Shot a yote a couple weeks ago at 562. I often shoot it out to 970yards on steel. Other sub 20" guns are .308 and 6.5CM. All wear a can and do the same thing as a long barrel would do, just a tad slower.
Back in the 80s when IHMSA silhouette was popular Wichita made a bolt handgun. One of more popular calibers in these Wichitas and XP100 was 308x1 1/2'' or .308 Barnes. Basically these were 308Winchester cut to 1.5''. IHMSA pistols limited to a 14'' barrel. lmpressive performance from this ctg @200meters. One trick of the silhouette shooters case forming with 300Savage brass. Savage case is thinner than 308Win brass. Savage cases were easier to form with and held MORE powder
If done today then easily done by necking up a Grendel or SPC case to .30 cal. or simply go with a 30BR
Obviously suppressors are somewhat in their infancy, well youth at best in the US unlike most other parts of the world. Outsiders view some of the expressed beliefs with interest if not amusement. I think time will show the subject is definitely over-thought.
Getting back to the OP's design requirements, the setup you see here by the hundreds if not thousands is known locally as a Bushpig. Something short and handy for the thick stuff plus fitted with a suppressor. The most common variant is based on a Tikka T3 or T3X in 7-08 or 308 though my son did have one in 260. Here's my 7-08 version though it now wears a 2.5-8 VX3 to make it even lighter
These are chopped to 16" which makes the reflex can just miss the forend. With intelligent loading, you're really not giving anything away in performance. Mine delivers a 120 TTSX ( equivalent of any 140 std proj) at 2940 and shoots into 0.6". Any deer under 350yds is in serious trouble, even without a dial-up scope.
There has been a trend here towards Superpigs- chamberings in 284 and 7RM in particular. These tend to be 18-20" bbls and are fully deer capable to 600yds with the right scope though they aren't as light and handy as their std brothers.
Getting back to the OP's design requirements, the setup you see here by the hundreds if not thousands is known locally as a Bushpig. Something short and handy for the thick stuff plus fitted with a suppressor. The most common variant is based on a Tikka T3 or T3X in 7-08 or 308 though my son did have one in 260. Here's my 7-08 version though it now wears a 2.5-8 VX3 to make it even lighter
These are chopped to 16" which makes the reflex can just miss the forend. With intelligent loading, you're really not giving anything away in performance. Mine delivers a 120 TTSX ( equivalent of any 140 std proj) at 2940 and shoots into 0.6". Any deer under 350yds is in serious trouble, even without a dial-up scope.
There has been a trend here towards Superpigs- chamberings in 284 and 7RM in particular. These tend to be 18-20" bbls and are fully deer capable to 600yds with the right scope though they aren't as light and handy as their std brothers.
I have to agree with ChrisNZ.
Here (Norway) silencers are sold over the counter and at this stage it's almost considered rude not to use one. Nobody likes a loudmouth
Heavy magnums excempted, I cut all my barrels at 20" and use a silencer.
Precision, accuracy and knockdown is not affected, choose the right powder and bullet.
Cartridges using sub 40 grains of powder seems to be especially quiet in a modern silencer.
Cartridges using 40-60 grains of slowburning powder works just fine.
There's plenty of articles showing how the various cartridges perform under barrel-cutting tests.
For shortrange deer (sub 300) I love the 6,5 Grendel (33 grains)
For allround use I find the 6 XC more versatile (37 grains)
6,5 "normal" (6.5x55, 6.5x47, 6.5 Creedmoor etc) or equivalent size 7mm or 30 or 8mm (depending on bullet you want) doesn't really give up any practical use.
6.5x284 (and I suspect 6.5 PRC) in a short barrel basically mimics the performance of a 6.5 Creed/ Swede with a normal barrel lenght. I used this a lot, but I'm getting the same endresult with all of the above (except Grendel) so I don't bother with the extra powder/ barrel burn.
With magnums I don't see the point of cutting the barrel as I can probably achieve the same with a different cartridge OR I accept the compromize because I want higher V0 on a heavier bullet (kinda what I did with my x284s).
Here's one (of maybe 300) films using a 20" suppressed 6.5mm
Here (Norway) silencers are sold over the counter and at this stage it's almost considered rude not to use one. Nobody likes a loudmouth
Heavy magnums excempted, I cut all my barrels at 20" and use a silencer.
Precision, accuracy and knockdown is not affected, choose the right powder and bullet.
Cartridges using sub 40 grains of powder seems to be especially quiet in a modern silencer.
Cartridges using 40-60 grains of slowburning powder works just fine.
There's plenty of articles showing how the various cartridges perform under barrel-cutting tests.
For shortrange deer (sub 300) I love the 6,5 Grendel (33 grains)
For allround use I find the 6 XC more versatile (37 grains)
6,5 "normal" (6.5x55, 6.5x47, 6.5 Creedmoor etc) or equivalent size 7mm or 30 or 8mm (depending on bullet you want) doesn't really give up any practical use.
6.5x284 (and I suspect 6.5 PRC) in a short barrel basically mimics the performance of a 6.5 Creed/ Swede with a normal barrel lenght. I used this a lot, but I'm getting the same endresult with all of the above (except Grendel) so I don't bother with the extra powder/ barrel burn.
With magnums I don't see the point of cutting the barrel as I can probably achieve the same with a different cartridge OR I accept the compromize because I want higher V0 on a heavier bullet (kinda what I did with my x284s).
Here's one (of maybe 300) films using a 20" suppressed 6.5mm
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