Summarize your load development

[garandman]

Under the "different ways to skin cat" theory.... I'm looking to improve my load development. My method (below) has always gotten me 0.3 - 0.5 moa @ 100 yd and 4 - 6 " at 700yd. But I want to do better. (DO whatcha always done, get whatcha always gotten) Please sumamrize your load developemtn method.

Here's mine:

1. If powder range is 28-0 - 31.0 gr, I'll start with 29.5 gr (mid-point) of a powder that shooters of that caliber have had regular success with. I'll work up in 0.2 gr increments to max (or slightly over, watching for pressure) I'll note velocities / ES / SD along the way. But I'll take the smallest 5 shot group.

2. Using the load for the smallest group, I'll fine tune seating depth / jump to lands to shrink group size much as possible. If this load has acceptable SD /ES, I'm good. If not, I'll try another powder / bullett. If it does, I'll repeat load 3 times to see if it "holds."

3. I'm improving my brass prep as a separate focus. (Lot to learn there) Bullett seaters I use LE WIlson exclusively.

I'm sure much of this is "wrong" Seriously.... I'm looking to improve. Please give me a quick summary of your process. Thx.

 

[BigWyoming]

1. Find seating depth at the lowest (or known safe) charge. Test back from the lands in .003 increments for a flat spot.
2. Load selected powder charges in a safe range to the max charge at .2 increments. Look for a flat velocity node.
3. Load and verify group size, velocity and drops at distance.

 

[D-4297]

I think one of thee keys to good load development is to use powders you are familiar with to start . Then you have some working knowledge of that powders potential , and it's ability to be "Accurate" , within reason , if you change bullets . Many guys experiment with different powders and bullets , for whatever reason , I don't know . Bored , I guess . Loading for hunting is not the same as loading for F-Class or BR . I know , I know . Everybody wants the best load to take into the field as possible , but if you're currently shooting a five inch group at 700 yards , that's pretty darn reasonable for a hunting rifle .

 

[BigWyoming]

"My method (below) has always gotten me 0.3 - 0.5 moa @ 100 yd and 4 - 6 " at 700yd."

Might I suggest a focus on shooting fundamentals? The .3 MOA might be your true accuracy potential, everything else you are seeing could be from the shooter. Just something to think about before you overhaul your whole process. That .3 MOA is damn fine.

 

[JimSC]

I am pretty much at the same point you are accuracy wise so I can't offer any hints for improvement development wise. I am at the point where I am upgrading my gear, looking for that magic pixie dust. I am thinking that in the load development category I am pretty much where I need to be, now it is just down to practice practice practice for those last couple of percentage points

 

[AntiMedic]

I find my jam point, rounds are seated 0.02 off of jam point.
reference a manual for what I’m shooting .308 for example
load at max and work backwards in 0.2 increments (current conditions I load 1 round at each) shoot over chronograph and look for a mv node that is within 10-15 fps of at least one other corresponding mv. For this I did two shots at each charge




conduct seating depth test starting at 0.02 off jam and working back in 0.003 increments usually to about 0.020. Looking for two or more consecutive groups that are all touching and small.

Pick the depth farthest out and subtract 0.001 that’s my seating depth load 0.5gr down from charge weight and 0.5gr up in 0.1gr increments shooting 3-5 round groups to final tune the load. Picking the smallest shooting consecutive groups and loading the charge in the middle. Fine tune with tuner after that if running one.


I did not shot a tuner test yet. This gets me some small groups

 

[INTJ]

If you really want to shoot small long range groups, then you will do what LR BR competitors do. My best five shot group at 600 yds was under an inch, my best 5-shot group at 1000 was under 2.4", and my best 10-shot group at 1000 was under 4". Others have shot smaller. We routinely shoot 2-5" 5-shot groups and 4-6" 10 shot groups at 1000 yds. We occasionally see a 5-shot group in the high 1" range and a 10-shot group in the high 2" range at 1000 yds.

Most of us shoot a 6 BRA or 6 Dasher as our light gun. The max weight is 17 lbs for the light gun class. We usually use a cut rifled 28" HV contour barrel with a 7.5-8 twist, a BAT or Kelbly dual port action, and a stock with a 3 or 4" wide fore end. We have either a Jewell or Bix 'n Andy 1.5-2oz trigger.

We use a heavy stable front rest, usually a Sinclair Competition model or a SEB Max. We use a heavy stable rear bag. We shoot off a concrete bench and bring our own shooting stool.

Common scopes are the Nightforce Benchrest 12-42x56, Vortex Golden Eagle 15-60, one of the March scopes, and occasionally a Sightron.

We use only high quality brass, usually Lapua or ADG, and we check it for consistency. I sort by weight and get rid of any outliers. We turn necks for about .003" clearance on the 6mms. Many of us anneal after every firing, some don't anneal at all--either approach works.

We size cases for somewhere between a .002-.003" shoulder bump, usually with custom dies matched to our reamer. I personally measure every case after sizing. We weigh primers and seat them to an exact crush.

Most of us use an A&D FX-120i scale with an Autothrow/Autotrickler setup. This allows us to measure powder to the kernel. Some use a Sartorius Entris scale.

Many of us sort out custom handmade 103-105 grain bullets in various ways. We seat these bullets on hydro presses or plain arbor presses with straight line dies. Any bullet that is an outlier with seating pressure becomes a sighter. I measure each round after seating.

We run through our powder charge tests in .2 grain increments in the 6mms. The powder is typically H4895 or Varget and primers are usually CCI 450s or BR-4s. Occasionally a Fed 205 or a CCI 400 shows up.

We usually run our seating ladders from about a .009" jam to a .018" jump. We are constantly tweaking our tune, especially the day before the match at the range where we are competing. We get best results by shooting 12-shot test ladders round-robin style at our competition distance. That is four different loads, three shot groups, bullet tips of each load are colored with a permanent marker, and we shoot all shots at the same aiming spot. We look for minimal vertical and overlap whether we are testing powder or seating.

Any short range (100-300 yds) tuning is just a rough cut. Sometimes short rage tuning works out, much of the time it needs to be tweaked, especially at 1000 yds. Almost always the high node shoots best at 1000 yds where the low node will shoot better at 600 and less.

Gun handling is critical. The gun must track very well, ideally so you don't have to adjust windage or elevation between shots in a string. We usually get off 5 shots in 20-25ish seconds, 10 in 30-35ish. We must hold the gun very consistently and push it back into battery very consistently. We also need to recognize good wind conditions to know when to run our shot string.

That is a quick and dirty overview of how to find and shoot small groups at long range.

 

[BigWyoming]

Why not seating depth first?

Seating depth will change pressure = change velocity. Finding the powder charge that puts you in the node after the depth is set seems more natural to me.

I have no data to support the above claim - it's just a thought process.

 

[Forum Boss]

In this discussion, we need clarification of the term "Jam" which is used inconsistently by a lot of people. Some guys use "jam" to mean the furthest seating point before bullet set-back occurs. Other guys say "jam" when they may be somewhere between first touch and max. And "full jam" can really vary depending on the way the measurement is performed and your neck tension.

As the baseline for seating into the lands, please refer to seating in thousandths beyond "first touch". The "first touch" measurement is repeatable, is what you can find with readily available tools, and is meaningful across multiple cartridge types, and bullet types, and reader personalities.

 

[garandman]

I'ma need to sit down and carefully read thru all this.....

 

[garandman]

Why not seating depth first?

Seating depth will change pressure = change velocity. Finding the powder charge that puts you in the node after the depth is set seems more natural to me.

I have no data to support the above claim - it's just a thought process.

"My method" is just what I've always done....not what's best. I'm looking to learn best practices.

 

[Forum Boss]

The "best practice" will vary based on discipline, cartridge, barrel, bullet shape. For single-feed benchrest rifles with small cartridges, many folks just start 5-10 into the lands past first touch, then load up from a safe starting point until max, then back off slightly and observe where the groups are small. Then fiddle with tuner (if you own one).

For an F-Class gun, guys are typically starting away from the lands, which allows rounds to be removed during a relay if necessary. Also the popular 7mm and .30-Cal hybrid bullets often (but not always) like to be jumped .020 (or even more). The point here is that the best method will vary with the cartridge, the discipline, and the types of bullets you are shooting.

I think a lot of people waste a lot of time with load dev because they have mediocre rifles/barrels, or funky rest set-ups. With a good barrel, good set-up, good bullets, a match-grade load can often be found in less than 25 rounds.

 

[BigWyoming]

Let's assume F-Class.

Chronicle that 25 rounds for me.

 

[JFrank]

"My method" is just what I've always done....not what's best. I'm looking to learn best practices.

Bullet hold can have a larger influence than seating depth.

 

[garandman]

Bullet hold can have a larger influence than seating depth.

I'm doing a "deep dive" into that discussion / process....mostly thru my 6 Dasher in that specific forum, here. I don't wanna "get what I've always gotten" any more.

 

[Forum Boss]

Let's assume F-Class.

Chronicle that 25 rounds for me.

OK, this assumes a barrel that is broken in (reasonably).

1. Do some research on this Forum or elsewhere as to what seating depths are working for people with your bullet and barrel combo (e.g. 7mm 180gr Berger Hybrid Target and Krieger 4-groove). Assuming .030" off "first touch" is a good 180gr starting place based on other's experience (for discussion purposes), start there with a typical neck tension (neither minimal nor maximal).

2. Again research the node people are shooting, with your powder (such as Alliant Reloder 16) and your bullet. Then start low and work up in increments of 0.3 grains, all with same seating depth and same neck tension. I might do three-shot groups initially, and even stop after two if one went out.

3. Depending on your gun, start with 2-5 foulers (whatever it seems to need) with the same powder and bullet.

4. Shoot three-shot groups, recording velocity. I normally shoot at 100 yards.*

Always let the barrel cool between groups -- don't rush.

8 three-shot groups is 24 rounds. That would give you a powder range of 0.3 x 8 or 2.4 grains, which should be plenty for a .284 Win or WSM. If, you work with a lesser spread (because you already know the max), then you can repeat groups for more assurance.

5. If nothing works, then experiment further .020" and .040" out etc. However, I think if you do your homework first and see what amount of jump has worked for others with your bullet, cartridge and barrel type, you may not have to fiddle much.

Shortcut: Find the actual velocity of a top shooter using your cartridge and start close to that. HOWEVER, remember barrels from the same maker can vary by 50 fps or more, and what works for another guy could definitely be TOO HOT in your rifle. Also understand that the other guy may be shooting in a different temp/humidity environment and his speed data could be just plain wrong, or his chrono is 30-40 fps different, or he has a longer barrel and so on. I would say, for a F-classer, I would probably try to start 70-80 fps slower than a known match load.

-------- The "Known node" Shortcut method ----

With my last bench rifle, a 6BRDX with 28" Brux, my load dev was basically done in a dozen rounds, with a 5-shot group to confirm.

After shooting the brass once to blow the shoulders out, I loaded 6 rounds (3x2) in 0.2 gr increments**, seating .007" beyond first touch, looking for a ~2950 fps target velocity. When we looked at the velocity data, I then loaded two more 3-shot groups with the charge that shot around 2954 fps. Both 3-shot groups were in the high ones (for 3). Plenty good enough for me.

That's round count 12 (not counting foulers). We then shot a five-shot group at the same charge to confirm and it was excellent (about a 0.2 flat) with very low ES. I say "we" because my friend Joe Friedrich did the shooting. A rimfire BR Nat'l champ, Joe is a much better trigger-puller than me. The whole process took less than an hour (not counting blowing out the brass previously). I still remember Joe's words after the 5-shot group: "I guess we're done." Yep, I thought. We went back to the loading room, I confirmed the cartridge base to ogive length, and wrote down the powder charge and other details.

Now... if that seating depth had not worked there would be more variables to chase. But I had previously learned that my bullets (Lapua Scenar 105s) liked being in the lands between .005-.010 past "first touch". I also know that those bullets (the old Scenars) were really, really consistent in base to ogive specs.

--------------
* With a known really accurate cartridge (such as 6BR) I might even start off with a few two-shot groups at 50 -- looking for two-in-one hole. Shooting at 50 reduces wind effects by 4X roughly (rule of the square). But, most people will want to shoot at 100.

** When looking for velocity I always have at least two with the same charge, because any one shot can be weird, or not get picked up by your chrono. I work with 0.2 gr here, but with a bigger cartridge such as .284 win, 0.3 might be better.

 

[Dave M.]

Under the "different ways to skin cat" theory.... I'm looking to improve my load development. My method (below) has always gotten me 0.3 - 0.5 moa @ 100 yd and 4 - 6 " at 700yd. But I want to do better. (DO whatcha always done, get whatcha always gotten) Please sumamrize your load developemtn method.

Here's mine:

1. If powder range is 28-0 - 31.0 gr, I'll start with 29.5 gr (mid-point) of a powder that shooters of that caliber have had regular success with. I'll work up in 0.2 gr increments to max (or slightly over, watching for pressure) I'll note velocities / ES / SD along the way. But I'll take the smallest 5 shot group.

2. Using the load for the smallest group, I'll fine tune seating depth / jump to lands to shrink group size much as possible. If this load has acceptable SD /ES, I'm good. If not, I'll try another powder / bullett. If it does, I'll repeat load 3 times to see if it "holds."

3. I'm improving my brass prep as a separate focus. (Lot to learn there) Bullett seaters I use LE WIlson exclusively.

I'm sure much of this is "wrong" Seriously.... I'm looking to improve. Please give me a quick summary of your process. Thx.

In step one, taking the smallest group is the biggest mistake you can make. Maybe you just got lucky on those 3 or 4 shots. When looking for the right charge weight at the beginning, what you are really searching for is the middle load of three different charge weights that all impact the target is the exact same POI. This is a good place to start. From there you can develop seating depth. Then I always reconfirm seating depth test within a three charge weight window for further refinement.
dave

 

[urbanrifleman]

Seating depth first, then powder. There is really no substiute for repition of testing. I do all my shooting practice with some kind of load workup. Repeat over and over and you see trends.

 

[garandman]

In step one, taking the smallest group is the biggest mistake you can make. Maybe you just got lucky on those 3 or 4 shots. When looking for the right charge weight at the beginning, what you are really searching for is the middle load of three different charge weights that all impact the target is the exact same POI. This is a good place to start. From there you can develop seating depth. Then I always reconfirm seating depth test within a three charge weight window for further refinement.
dave

I repeat that "lucky" 5-shot group, 3 more times... on diffrrent days, to make sure it repeats. Ive used this method on a half dozen different calibers / rifles, getting well under half moa repeat groups in all of them.

No luck involved.

Im just looking to do better.

 

[garandman]

Seating depth first, then powder. There is really no substiute for repition of testing. I do all my shooting practice with some kind of load workup. Repeat over and over and you see trends.

Yes, I test and repeat repeat repeat.

If I do seating depth first, what am I looking for.... SD / ES, or group size ?