Subsonic 308 pills (need advice)

[P1ZombieKiller]

I just built a 300/221 and I am in load development, however trying to figure out the difference in the 200 SMK and the 240 SMK (Hornady 208 A-max is very close to the SMK 200, but wondering if any better on hogs only going 1050 fps).

specs are: 300/221 shooting 1050 fps and will be used for plinking and the occasional pig.

I see the trajectory is virtually the same out to 200 yards (-32.2" for the 200's and -31.7 for the 240's) when sighted dead on at 100 yards.

The knock down is almost 100 foot pounds more with the 240's that the 200's (200's = 457 foot pounds and the 240's = 556 foot pounds).

Is that extra 100 foot pounds of energy worth the extra $12 per 100? Will the Amax make any difference at all (assuming they shoot as good as the SMK's) on pigs at that low velocities? Will any bullet even begin to open up at that low velocity? I know the 240's are some times pretty tough to come by.

 

[LWolken]

I'd try the A max, maybe even a lighter constructed bullet. A friend of mine used his 300 whisper on some exotics last week and the bullets did not expand at all. I'll find out what he was shooting. They were a round nose 200+ grain bullet but like I said no expansion at all. This was PBR head shots. I'd load some and shoot up some old phone books before using them on any game. Also you must know the exact range due to trajectory issues. He and his smith had trouble connecting at ranges inside 150yds. I will say this, it was silent with a moderator. Very neat but needs some more development.

Lance

 

[Kenny474]

With that low of a velocity, cast lead bullets may be a viable alternative. If you use pure lead, or even a slight lead/tin alloy, you will be able to achieve some serious expansion at those velocities.

I have cast a lot of bullets and shoot a lot as well, and even at 1000fps some of my softer alloys will have very significant expansion from a .45acp. I know you are using a rifle, but the same results should be possible.

Unless you can find bullets that heavy with a paper thin jacket, I think lead is your best bet. Though you will likely need to cast your own, as most .308 bullets are of a very hard alloy of lead/tin/antimony and will be far too hard to expand.
Lee makes a nice 200gr RN mold that works very well and can be had for about $25. Or I could even grab some pure lead and cast a few for you to try.

 

[strobes]

Critical to know the twist on the barrel, than you can use calculator to find heaviest bullet the barrel can stabilize.

 

[P1ZombieKiller]

Critical to know the twist on the barrel, than you can use calculator to find heaviest bullet the barrel can stabilize.

Sorry about that.
The twist is 1:7, so I can shoot'em as big as I can get'em.

Kenny,
I would be interested in knowing more about lead bullets in that size. What are the draw backs to shooting lead in my barrel. The barrel is a douglas SS barrel.

 

[strobes]

P1Z, what groups do you expect for sub loads?
I build a whisper on Brux and event with 220 gr SMKs it was difficult to group less than 1.5MOA using H110: loads are sensitive to position of the powder and temperature. In results I have seen vertical strings. Lead bullets will introduce more variables you cant control. So groups will open I think.

 

[P1ZombieKiller]

Right now with 8.0 grains of Lil Gun and 200 grain SMK's, my groups at 100 yards are just over 1" (5 shot groups, not 3 shot). Prob about 1.25. Have not measured them, and have only 68 rounds down this tube, so I still have lots to do.

I have P-dog guns and bench guns that shoot in the .1's and .2's, so I am not looking for a tack driver. I'm looking at a nice fun gun to shoot, and if I want to do it with no one knowing.... PERFECT.

I just need to hit a 4"-5" circle at what ever distance I determine. I know I'll be launching them in a rainbow like arc, but that's ok. If lead will double the size of my groups, I may be out, but it the groups can stay somewhere in the 2" range at 100, I should be ok for what I'm doing. I'm just worried about something like that going down my barrel, and what damage I am doing there.

 

[MQ1]

Wes,

The only drawback to lead, is that you may find yourself wanting to cast your own bullets

Pick the right mold, the right alloy, and you'll have a blast.

I cast for .44 mag, .45 ACP, and .45-70, but have thought that casting for .30 caliber would be a good next step.

Get a Lyman Casting book...it will give you a good idea about shooting lead...or go google cast boolits and check out their site...

Shooting proper lead bullets will significantly extend the life of your barrel. At 1000fps, I don't even think you'll want a gascheck.

MQ1

 

[P1ZombieKiller]

how do I pick the right alloy? Do I go to Alloys R Us?

My dad used to have a smelting pot when I was a kid, and he made 44 bullets for the kids to shoot. He would load them real lite so we could shoot the 44 mag as kids. I remember him having to put wax on them. Is it the same for rifle bullets? Am I asking all the questions I should be reading about in the Lyman casting book?

 

[Kenny474]

Shooting lead at that low a velocity isn't really that much of an issue, it's when you get velocity above 2000fps that you really need to be on top of things, as too soft an alloy or the wrong lube and you will literally melt lead into the grooves, I know as I've done it in my Mosin.

When you are around 1000fps with a gas check and good lube, leading is very minimal, if there at all, and cleaning is simple. The only real issue I think you may have is with groove depth. Lead bullets are soft and do better in deep rifling, though it is still possible to get acceptable results without too much of an issue in most barrels.

I shoot lead in several rifles and every pistol I own. As long as you are consistent and precise in your casting you can get very consistent bullets. A lot of BPCR shooters cast their own bullets and hit rams at 500yds without issue. I am able to get MOA accuracy at 100yds from my 30-06 with 200gr lead bullets at 2350fps, which is all it's capable of with jacketed bullets. And my Finnish Mosin will shoot .75 MOA with my cast bullets, and that's about all that has in it as well. Both my .500 S&W and 45/70 shoot only lead, and they do so very accurately, considering what they are. So if you have an accurate rifle, it's very possible to get exceptional results from lead.

Lead has an undeserved reputation for inaccuracy, as when it is used properly with the right alloy you can develop very accurate loads. You won't compete with a Berger VLD, but you can still get accuracy. You need to weight sort and sort by diameter as well to get best results, but that often is part of reloading for top accuracy anyway. If you can produce consistent bullets, .5 MOA should be attainable. They all come from the same mold, so they are usually very consistent in size. Though just as with other components, different lots of lead will have different weights to a certain degree, so they may vary by a grain or two if you don't smelt it all together. But 50lbs of lead will last a LONG time, so buy in bulk and it's no issue.

Any other questions just ask. I have been casting since I was 14 for my muzzle loader, so I have been doing it for a bit. (I'm 29 now) I am not as knowledgeable as some, but I do OK.

Kenny

 

[MQ1]

hahaha. Wes, it is a slippery slope.

I think that what you are trying to accomplish, may be done with 50% wheelweights and 50% pure lead, although pure wheelweights will likely do fine.I've cast a bunch of .45 acp with that mix, and they shoot exceedingly well for me, and don't lead up the barrel.

There are much better authorities than me on the alloy, but with a little research and some load development, you should be able to come up with a combination that is at least the equal of jacketed bullets, and maybe better.

Unfortunately, I inherited my dads casting supplies when he passed away 8 years ago. Everytime I cast, I feel like I'm back at home, hanging out in the basement, shooting the shit about loading some new pea shooter. I even think I can smell his pipe

MQ1

 

[Kenny474]

As for alloy, pure lead or lead with 5% tin should be fine with a gas check at 1000fps.There are actually several sources that you can order different alloys from, essentially Alloy's R Us. I just received 100lbs of 84/4/12 lead/tin/antimony alloy from Roto Metals. It's very hard and used for high velocity rifle bullets. I can push it to about 2600fps without leading.

As for lube, I use Lee's tumble lube and Lyman's Moly lube for high velocity rifle, and homemade 50/50 moly/beeswax for low velocity stuff.

The wax in the pot is for fluxing the lead, so all the metals will alloy together and cast well. You can also flux with anything that contains carbon, even a pine stick used to stir it will flux the alloy.

Roto Metal's site:http://www.rotometals.com/Bullet-Casting-Alloys-s/5.htm

 

[Kenny474]

Wheel weights will work as well, though a lot of the new weights contain zinc which will junk a pot of alloy at 1 part per 100, so you need to be careful. I have 20lbs of junk I shoot through my cannon just to get rid of it. I have about 35 slugs left until it's gone. It cast's like garbage and shatters on impact with hard objects for the most part.

I believe the Lyman cast manual has a section on matching alloy to pressure/velocity. Lee makes a tool to measure the Brinell hardness of cast bullets, and it work very well.

 

[P1ZombieKiller]

I think I may have left out a vital important piece of info that I am just learning may have taken this thread down the wrong path. I plan on shooting this through my suppressor. I do not have it yet, but should have it in a couple of months. I have already sent the paperwork in.

so... we may need to get back to the initial question of, would it be better for me to shoot the 200 SMK's knowing that I loose 100 foot pounds of energy? Or should I pay the extra $12 per hundred to get the 240's for that extra knock down? Is 450ish foot pounds enough for pigs at 100 yards? Is it all about where you hit them?

 

[MQ1]

Like Kenny, I'm particularly fond of the Lyman molly lube.

Before you run out and dump $350 on the equipment, go to this site:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

The gentleman who runs the business sold me the bullets that proved to me that cast bullets can be really accurate.

Let him know what you are trying to do, and maybe he has something in stock that can get you going in the short term.

Get the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Good reading....

MQ1

 

[Kenny474]

If the suppressor is installed properly you will likely have no issue. You can use Lee's tumble lube which won't gum up the suppressor.

I have also heard good things about beartooth bullets. I just never tried them as I have all my own equipment.

 

[MQ1]

Pigs can be pretty tough. I'd opt for all the punch you can get since you are operating on the low end of the spectrum.

 

[GaryD]

Hi Wes,

I would check with the supressor manufacture about shooting lead bullets. I know one manufacturer that voids there warranty if you do not use their recommened sub-sonics and covers all other brands of normal velocity. Strangle is specificaly states Lapua sub-sonics void the warranity.

Gary

 

[P1ZombieKiller]

Hi Wes,

I would check with the supressor manufacture about shooting lead bullets. I know one manufacturer that voids there warranty if you do not use their recommened sub-sonics and covers all other brands of normal velocity. Strangle is specificaly states Lapua sub-sonics void the warranity.

Gary

Good idea. I bought an SWR Omega 30. I'll check into that tomorrow. This is why this site is the best thing. I read as much as I could over on Snipers hide, and those guys just get a little too hyped up for me. I just need straight talk, and not told I'm an idiot because I didn’t get this can or use that powder bullet combo.

 

[LWolken]

Wes,

I shoot a lot of pigs each year. Last year I shot 19 with my bow recovered 16 of those. In archery we rely on trauma and I would venture to guess that a 1.125" dia cut broad head would be slightly better than a .308 dia bullet with little to no expansion. It can be done but its all about shot placement. The heart and lungs are very forward and low in the chest cavity. Not like a deer. The lower the better, I usually prefer a slightly quartering shot that lets me in behind the little elbow. After your first pig you might want to use it for some ballistic media that is what we intend to do. I'll let you know what we find.

Lance