Stubborn patch of barrel won't clean.

[Alex Wheeler]

Ok, take some jb/iosso and polish that barrel like I said. Mic the barrel and tell me what you find. I have done it to satisfy myself. This is real world, not theory or engineering text. Let me know how long it takes you before you can mic the change.
Alex

 

[BoydAllen]

Just for a point of reference, anything that is black and comes out with any amount of patch solvent and brush work, is by definition, not what is colloquially referred to as "hard carbon". So, for those of you that are so concerned with the use of abrasives, do you just ignore the stuff, or do you not own, or have a friend with a bore scope? Barrels are like the tires on a race car, they should be well maintained, but they wear out. The usual cause of this demise is from heat checking that starts at the throat and progresses forward. Using abrasives requires some attention to both having the right equipment, and technique. If one uses abrasives excessively, or improperly, it is possible to damage a barrel, but if one is reasonably adroit in their use, they can be useful, and will not harm a barrel, within its useful accuracy life. The need to use abrasives is dependent on several variables, of which, an important one is what powder is being used. For example, in the short range benchrest area, 133 has been and continues to be a very popular powder. In my experience, one can clean its fouling without using an abrasive. On the other hand, some other powders that have been popular require their use.

 

[JRS]

Having witnessed the procedure, roughly 25 strokes with a nylon brush and JB. Performed by Gale McMillan, with probably 50 people in attendance. Like I stated Alex, measure the OD before, and after, polishing your barrel. Abrasives are designed to remove material. PERIOD! Your toothpaste removes enamel from your teeth Ask your dentist! It also contains the least amount of abrasive you'll ever use ;D

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Well said Boyd.
JRS, we all know abrasives are designed to remove material. When used properly in a barrel they will do no harm, and are the only way I know of to remove the carbon a brush and solvent will not remove. I shoot rl15, its very dirty, I use iosso every 100 rounds or so to keep the carbon at bay, verified with a borescope. I have seen barrels quit shooting due to carbon build-up. The only reason I keep arguing with you is I don't want a new shooter to believe you and end up being afraid to use an abrasive cleaner. If your skill level prevents you from being able to properly use an abrasive then may be its best not to, but most can handle it.

 

[mikecr]

I don't like carbon to get a footing anywhere in bores. It'll only get worse & harder to deal with down the road.
Work it loose with some kroil & the J-B compound linked to by Outdoorsman.

 

[BoydAllen]

Ah yes, the internet has made shooters afraid of brushes, abrasives, and pulling brushes back through from the muzzle. They should go to a benchrest match some time. This is all a bit silly, since nothing but the judicious use of an abrasive will remove hard carbon. I guess that the naysayers just continue to shoot over the stuff, or think that the powder fouling that they patch out, is the same thing. They are, if you consider graphite powder and diamonds are both carbon.

 

[artbosco]

By all means, use an abrasive, destroy the hand lapped finish the barrel maker worked so hard to achieve. Then check your bore size again, and witness the rounded edges on the grooves that were once nice and sharp :

I use JB in my 6PPC and 30BR $500 competition barrels [barrel + chambering] all the time. Usually after 40 to 80 rounds. Accuracy has never diminished. Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v7spb32Huc

 

[Old Navy]

I had the mother of all carbon rings a few months ago and no JB to help get it out. I will never let that happen again. Just started working with a new barrel. I plan to do a little PM with JB this time around. Later! Frank

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

It shoots great clean or dirty. The barrel has less than 500 rounds down it. My bore scope tells me it's still dirty and my dry patches still come out with some black on them so I'm sure that it's not a metal layer. I don't see how a brush and patch can remove metal?

When a barrel shoots real well don't worry too much about fixing what isn't broken.

 

[JRS]

Since you are the expert now Boyd Allen, and obviously, know more than the barrel makers, tell Frank Green and John Kreiger they know nothing of which they speak. Ask them how many barrels are returned due to not shooting or coppering up. And while you're at it, ask them what they have found to be the cause. The use of abrasives. Why not let the OP make his own decision based on the experience from the barrel makers. I have stated nothing more than the the ACTUAL experience the barrel makers have stated on many occasions. If you're like Tony Boyer, and can afford to purchase one dozen barrels at a time, and have them all chambered at the same time, go for it. Tony would be happy to tell you how long a barrel lasts with his scrubbing routine. Not many rounds at all. Dan Dowling and I went in 50-50 a number of years ago to have Tony come out to Dan's house when he offered that great treat. When Dan asked about the use of JB in the barrel, Tony said "not if you want more than 600 rounds out of that thing. I use it because I can afford the barrels and it takes me less time to clean it".

 

[Alex Wheeler]

What is your method of removing hard carbon that wont come out with a brush/solvent? I was just told by a barrel maker that all you need is a brush and hoppies 9. He also told me barrels don't wear from being shot, and throat erosion is from cleaning. Hmmm, I guess all this talk about over bore cartridges torching the throat is bs because a barrel maker told me so.

 

[Eddie Harren]

Stretch, happy now? More informed than before?

 

[Uthink Uknow]

I need a bore scope just to read through all this crap.

 

[stretch257]

Oh yeah, I know everyone has their own beliefs when it comes to cleaning a barrel. I think there is a time and a place to use almost every product. But this is a new to me rifle and I really have no idea how long it has been beat into the bore. I like the bore as clean as possible. I find that fouling will build up faster on old fouling it acts like sand paper on the jacket. Where the smooth finish of the barrel will let it slide easier.

 

[bouddha]

Barrel makers are great at making barrels, but they are no more experts at cleaning barrels than auto dealerships are at repairing and maintaining a vehicle they sold. The best "expert" mechanics don't work for the local Ford place.

There is also financial incentive to actually have barrels wear faster, or be discarded due to carbon buildup. I'm going to ride with the benchresters that brush clean a $500 barrel like Itzhak Perlman sawing out some Paganini! When I'm able to brush @ 3500 fps, I'll worry about it...

 

[Eddie Harren]

I've been shooting BR since 1989 and I don't see many shooters "sawing away with a rod and brush".

 

[bouddha]

You would if you came to the western half of the country. I have competed for years with people whose names are readily recognizable by folks with a modicum of BR experience, folks with Hall of Fame and multiple time World Gold Medal winners behind their names, but maybe your experience in Maryland makes you the expert.

 

[BoydAllen]

I had to refresh my memory, so I did a little research. First of all look at the top picture, and caption, then scroll down to the equipment list. That thar is definitely .30 BR country, for score.http://internationalbenchrest.com/results/score/2011/TCSC/BUD/17Bud.php
Seeing that an old 722 has that kind of potential gladdened my heart, since I happen to own a .222 bench gun built on one. Eddie, do most of you preload, and how often does the VFS .30BR crowd tend to clean? Do you see many coated bullets, and if so, what with? Tryin' to learn something from someone who obviously knows that part of the sport.
Boyd

 

[JRS]

To the OP:

There is a very good response on Benchrest Central, from Frank Green (Bartelin Barrels) regarding length of time between cleanings. He also does NOT use abrasives during his cleaning routines. Very good article by a highly regarded barrel maker, with a great deal of experience.

 

[Eddie Harren]

Bouddha, I never claim to be an expert on anything. Besides some of you have already claimed that position.

Boyd, both my wife Sara, and I have been shooting Remington rifles for years. I do all the building. We have been using the very fine Lilja 3 groove 17 twist barrels ever since we switched from PPC to BR. We use our own 109.4 Gr. bullets made on Niemi, true 7 ogive dies, on J4 .925" jackets with Hoods cores.
We both brush after every relay, unless we were lucky enough to have a very good condition which allowed us to get the relay completed in less than 7 or 8 shots. In that case we wait until after the next relay. I can't remember the last time I used any abrasive cleaner in any of our barrels. Other than to clean the carbon ring using my hero, TonyB's method.