Stubborn Brass

[alamo_308]

I recently pulled down a batch of reloads because the bullets were preventing me closing the bolt, either completely or only with tremendous force. All these FNM 6.5x55 Swede cases were twice-fired, once-reloaded. The reloaded cases were originally decapped/full-length-resized, tumbled, neck-turned, pocket-swaged, mouth-chamfered, but not annealed.
So with some help from comments on here, I figured I needed to empty them, then resize. I first tried just a body sizing die. Pushing the empty case with the bolt, I tried closing the bolt; no luck (in multiple rifles, Swede M96s and M38s).
Then I tried a full-length resizing die; again no luck. For comparison, I also tried (in all the rifles) a brand-new, empty Winchester case: Perfect, the bolt closed and locked, with expected minimal effort.
I used digital calipers to measure some of the case dimensions, and compare between the FNM and Winchester cases. The dimensions I checked before having to leave for work seemed exactly the same, but when I get home today, I will check more dimensions more thoroughly.
Is there anything else I should be investigating? Other case prep steps?

 

[Barlow]

You need to be able to mesure the case from the base to the datum line (shoulder). Hornady makes this tool and it fastens on to your mic. with an insert that fits on the shoulder. My suggestion is to raise the ram with the proper shellholder in place to the top of its stroke, screw your full length sizing die down til it makes full snug contact with the shell holder, ( I assume you have a single stage press). Lube a case and run it up into the die, try it in your rifle. If it does not chamber, screw your sizing die down 1/4 turn so that the handle will go over center when you push it down. Lube the case again and run it into the die, make sure the handle goes all the way down and goes over center. Try the case in your rifle. If not, screw the die down a scooch (tech term) and try again. DO NOT go to far and bend the press or ram, common sense will tell you when you are going to far. If it still will not chamber, you will have to shave a few thousands off the base of the die, and then it should work. A buddy just had the same problem with a Browning A Bolt 7 Mag, and his cured it. Work slowly and carefully, once all the slack is out of the press linkage, shell holder slot etc. it will bottom out hard, do not use enough force to wreck stuff. You need to set the shoulder back far enough so that it will chamber. Barlow

 

[fguffey]

I have no clue what press and or dies, when a case whips my press I know it, when I adjust the die to the shell holder in one of my presses I know when the case is returned to minimum length before lowering the ram.

I have body dies as in dies that can be used to size a case body and shoulder without sizing the neck, for the 270 case my body/shoulder bump? die is called a 30/06 full length sizer die. For the 30/06 I have the 8mm06 full length sizeer die, then there is the 35 Whelen and 338/06 die.

F. Guffey

 

[bigedp51]

alamo_308

Below is what Barlow is talking about, if the distance from the rear of the case touching the bolt face to the datum line is too long the bolt will be hard to close. Meaning the case is longer than the rifles chamber and the shoulder of the case will need to be bumped back a little further.

Also when full length resizing the case body is being compressed and as it is being squeezed the distance from the base of the case to the datum line "INCREASES" making the case longer. It is the last few thousandths of press ram movement that actually starts to push the shoulder back smaller than your chamber length.



With the Hornady Cartridge Case Headspace Gauge you can measure your fired cases and bump or push the shoulder back the required amount.
(.001 to .002 for a bolt action and .003 to .004 for a semi)

Below the Hornady gauge is measuring from the base to the datum line for proper full length resizing. The Wilson case gauges will measure your cases also BUT the Hornady gauge if more accurate and easier to use.



If the die setup method described by Barlow doesn't work, the top of the shell holder can be lapped carefully removing a few thousandths until your cases fit the chamber.

 

[Barlow]

bigedp51, I wish I was as computer literate as you, great post. Either the shellholder or die body need to be shortened. Barlow

 

[Shynloco]

I recently pulled down a batch of reloads because the bullets were preventing me closing the bolt, either completely or only with tremendous force. All these FNM 6.5x55 Swede cases were twice-fired, once-reloaded. The reloaded cases were originally decapped/full-length-resized, tumbled, neck-turned, pocket-swaged, mouth-chamfered, but not annealed.
So with some help from comments on here, I figured I needed to empty them, then resize. I first tried just a body sizing die. Pushing the empty case with the bolt, I tried closing the bolt; no luck (in multiple rifles, Swede M96s and M38s).
Then I tried a full-length resizing die; again no luck. For comparison, I also tried (in all the rifles) a brand-new, empty Winchester case: Perfect, the bolt closed and locked, with expected minimal effort.
I used digital calipers to measure some of the case dimensions, and compare between the FNM and Winchester cases. The dimensions I checked before having to leave for work seemed exactly the same, but when I get home today, I will check more dimensions more thoroughly.
Is there anything else I should be investigating? Other case prep steps?

Alamo,
As I read your post and the following responses, something comes to mind that you didn't mention in your post. And that is whether these casings were previously fired in your particular rifle? And did you measure the circumference of the base of the brass in your comparison with the Winchester brass you mentioned? The reason I ask is that not long along, I obtained some previously fired Lake City Match brass and found the base was .001 - .002 larger than my Lapua or Norma .308 brass. Like you, my bolt wouldn't close with or without a bullet in it. I had to buy a Small Base FL die to resize the base as well as the shoulders and my problem was instantly solved. Just something to consider.

Alex

 

[bigedp51]

Your SAAMI American made resizing die "might" not conform to your Swedish rifles chamber.


Delta L problem

Delta L (ΔL) cartridges list

The C.I.P. published a ΔL cartridge and theoretical C.I.P. minimum chamber length shortage dimensions list. The value of ΔL must however be taken from the relevant cartridge data information in the C.I.P. Tables. Most cartridges on the list are of American origin, and many are only chambered in commercial firearms manufactured by American companies using SAAMI specifications.


List of cartridges for which C.I.P. lists ΔL and the amount in millimeters

6.5 x 55 SE 0.09

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_L_problem



6.5×55mm

Chamber differences rumor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5_x_55_SE

 

[alamo_308]

Alamo, As I read your post and the following responses, something comes to mind that you didn't mention in your post. And that is whether these casings were previously fired in your particular rifle? And did you measure the circumference of the base of the brass in your comparison with the Winchester brass you mentioned? The reason I ask is that not long along, I obtained some previously fired Lake City Match brass and found the base was .001 - .002 larger than my Lapua or Norma .308 brass. Like you, my bolt wouldn't close with or without a bullet in it. I had to buy a Small Base FL die to resize the base as well as the shoulders and my problem was instantly solved. Just something to consider.
Alex

Thanks, Alex. No, these cases were previously fired in other 6.5 rifles (Swede M96 and M38). I had never shot this rifle before, and I am now anxious to see how it does. The base diameter of the 'problem' brass is .005 inch larger (.480) than the Winchester brass base diameter (.476). BTW: accurateshooter.com cartridge diagram shows this diameter spec as .4803.
My Redding 6.5x55 Body Die only bumps the shoulder and does not affect the base diameter.
Much searching for a 6.5x55 small base die came up with nothing (RCBS, Redding, Lee, Hornady). Not giving up, though.
- Philip

 

[alamo_308]

alamo_308
Below is what Barlow is talking about, if the distance from the rear of the case touching the bolt face to the datum line is too long the bolt will be hard to close. Meaning the case is longer than the rifles chamber and the shoulder of the case will need to be bumped back a little further.
Also when full length resizing the case body is being compressed and as it is being squeezed the distance from the base of the case to the datum line "INCREASES" making the case longer. It is the last few thousandths of press ram movement that actually starts to push the shoulder back smaller than your chamber length.

With the Hornady Cartridge Case Headspace Gauge you can measure your fired cases and bump or push the shoulder back the required amount. (.001 to .002 for a bolt action and .003 to .004 for a semi)

Below the Hornady gauge is measuring from the base to the datum line for proper full length resizing. The Wilson case gauges will measure your cases also BUT the Hornady gauge if more accurate and easier to use.

If the die setup method described by Barlow doesn't work, the top of the shell holder can be lapped carefully removing a few thousandths until your cases fit the chamber.

Thanks, bigedp51. I do need to get the Hornady Cartridge Case Headspace Gauge, along with inserts and bushing sets for other calibers too, but am confused by the items listed on MidwayUSA. The device in your picture appears to be all one piece, but Midway offers a Comparator Anvil Base separately, "Designed to be used (with) the Hornady Lock-N-Load Bullet Comparator." But they also offer the comparator body which appears to include the caliper attachment groove and thumbscrew. I'm confused. What pieces do I need to get? Do I need the comparator body and the anvil base?
- Philip

 

[Nvreloader]

Alamo,

For a small base die,
You can also use a die in another caliber that is bigger in spec's than the 6.5x55, such as a 30/06 or 270 standard sizing die, the base size of these are .471" (normally) and then cut off the die long enough (right below the shoulder angle) and then use this shorten bottom section of the die to carefully resize your case base down to spec's enough to use in your rifle, or use the full length as long as the your cases does not touch the die anywhere except the base section etc.

Do some careful checking of the spec's of other available dies/cases needed to fit your 6.5x55 cases.

Tia,
Don

Thanks, Alex. No, these cases were previously fired in other 6.5 rifles (Swede M96 and M38). I had never shot this rifle before, and I am now anxious to see how it does. The base diameter of the 'problem' brass is .005 inch larger (.480) than the Winchester brass base diameter (.476). BTW: accurateshooter.com cartridge diagram shows this diameter spec as .4803.
My Redding 6.5x55 Body Die only bumps the shoulder and does not affect the base diameter.
Much searching for a 6.5x55 small base die came up with nothing (RCBS, Redding, Lee, Hornady). Not giving up, though.
- Philip

 

[bigedp51]

This is what I have pictured above, the red base clamps on the vernier and five different caliber adapters. A set screw holds the adapters and a brass knurled knob clamps it to the jaw of the vernier caliper.

Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Gage 5 Bushing Set with Comparator

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/479704/hornady-lock-n-load-headspace-gage-5-bushing-set-with-comparator

One of the reasons I like the Hornady gauge can be seen below, a case fired in a larger military type AR15 chamber is too large to fit inside a Wilson case gauge. Please note in a standard .223 chamber this would not be a problem. This case could be forcefully pushed into the Wilson case gauge but a rod would be needed to pound the case back out. The Hornady gauge doesn't care how fat your cases get.



NOTE: A full length resized case will fit fine in the Wilson gauge and I use it for eye ball inspection of the finished rounds before placing them in their plastic containers.

 

[Barlow]

I just measured a Rem case at the base .473, and a Lapua .476 ahead of the extractor grove. The Rem case head .471, Lapua .478. U.S. made brass in 6.5x55 is smaller than European brass in this area. That's why 6.5x55s are hard to rechamber to other cartridges. I don't believe you need a small base die. I have two Swede's, a 94 and 96, they have different headspace. Have you tried shortening the die or shell holder yet? Barlow

 

[fguffey]

Alamo_308. You can pile tools up on the bench until it is not possible see over them, as suggested you can grind the die and or shell holder, my opinion? It is better to understand what is going on when the ram is raise.

I have presses, a few, when purchased, had a guarantee, the guarantee stated the press did not flex, I have at least three if them. If I have a press that flexes determining the amount of flex is not a problem. The cause of flex is the case, when a case has more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome, the case wins. I do not know what press your are using, I do not what brand of die you are using, I do not know what lube you are using. I have RCBS, Dillon, Hornady, Lyman, C&H, Herters, Hollywood Gun Gun Shop, Pacific, Luger, Texan and Weatherby dies, forgive, and I have Lee dies, Then there are special use dies, I have forming dies, neck sizer dies, small base dies, full length sizer dies and modified body/part of the shoulder sizing dies. ‘POINT?’

“If I have a press that flexes determining the amount of flex is not a problem” Most cases that are not sized when the ram is raised can be checked before the ram is lowered. If the case has more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome the die will not contact the shell holder, between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder there should not be a gap if die and shell holder is adjusted to full length size.. The gap indicates the amount of the case that is not shoved into the die. Slightly lowering the ram and raising it again has been know to increase the amount of sizing.

Things you can do, measure the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder with the ram raised. I use a feeler gage, from Harbor Freight, $6.00. Then determine if the die is capable of returning the case to minimum length/full length size. The shell holder has a deck height of .125” measuring the die for length is a matter if placing a head space gage in the die then install a shell holder, in the perfect world the go-gage is longer from the shoulder of the gage to the head of the gage than a minimum length/full length sized case. ‘BY?’ SAAMI is impossible to nail down, a good number would be from .004” to .005”.

After the go=gage is inserted into the die and the shell holder is placed over the head of the gage, measure the gap between the die and shell holder, the gap shoulder be .004” to .005”, If there is no gap, return the die, or, if you have dies like some of my dies the company that made the dies are no longer taking calls, even then, a die that measures long can be used to size cases for long chambers. Then there is the problem with getting a shell holder to fit a go-gage, the deck height of the shell holder is .125”, forget the shell holder, measure the go-gage protrusion from from the die, in the perfect world the protrusion would be .005”, or use a magnum #4 RCBS type shell holder, it will not fit the case head and or head space gage but, again, the deck height is .125”.

Then there is removing the die with the sized case, All of my presses allow me to remove the die with the sized case from the press by removing the shell holder first (by rotating). After removing the die with the case I can measure the case head protrusion from the die or I can install the shell holder back on the case head and then measure the gap, again, the gap determines the amount of the case that is not being sized.

Or, as suggested, there are a lot of tools out there, I do not recommend grinding the bottom of the die and or the top of the shell holder, it is and was never necessary.

A reloader should know if the case they just sized will chamber before they lower the ram.

F. Guffey

 

[alamo_308]

Thanks, fguffey. I totally agree that grinding the bottom of the die and or the top of the shell holder is an extreme step just a bit too radical for my skill level (and maybe impractical, too?).
Meantime, I'm still trying to digest your comprehensive response. Interesting!

 

[Barlow]

If taking a few thousands off of a shellholder or die is radical or extreme, why do Redding and others make competition shellholders that vary in height to accomplish the same task? Barlow

 

[bigedp51]

Thanks, fguffey. I totally agree that grinding the bottom of the die and or the top of the shell holder is an extreme step just a bit too radical for my skill level (and maybe impractical, too?).
Meantime, I'm still trying to digest your comprehensive response. Interesting!

alamo_308

There is nothing to "digest", I just checked three dies using GO gauges and feeler gauges. I got readings of .005 to .008 gap between the shell holder and the bottom of the die.

In simple plain English a full length resizing die is designed to push or bump the shoulder of the case back "SMALLER" than a GO gauge when making hard contact (cam over) with the shell holder. My Redding .223 FL die bumps the shoulder of the case back .005 smaller than the GO gauge, and my Lee .223 die bumps the shoulder back .008.

You do not need headspace gauges or magic feeler gauges to resize your cases. All you need is the Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge to measure your fired cases and bump or push the shoulder of the case back .001 to .002 "smaller" than the fired length reading you got with the Hornady gauge.

If you read the instructions that comes with you dies they tell you to make the press cam over to make sure the resized case is small enough to fit in "ANY" chamber. You can also adjust the height of the die to only push or bump the shoulder of the case back the minimum to fit "YOUR" chamber.

I'm loading for three different AR15 rifles and a bolt action .223 and I have the Redding "Competition Shell Holder Set" that has shell holders .002, .004, .006, .008 and .010 taller than a standard shell holder. These are designed for precise shoulder bump when the press in making hard contact with the shell holder or cam over.

With a lubed case in the shell holder the die is adjusted using the proper height Redding shell holder. With the lubed case in the shell holder and the die contacting the shell holder you are centering the die in the press threads "then" you tighten the die lock ring.

Bottom line at a minimum get a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge and you do "NOT" need headspace gauges or magic feeler gauges.

 

[CatShooter]

If taking a few thousands off of a shellholder or die is radical or extreme, why do Redding and others make competition shellholders that vary in height to accomplish the same task? Barlow

They (Redding) do not.

The comp shell holders only make case headspace longer, not shorter. Grinding makes it shorter.

Sometimes there is no other way. Grinding a die is extreme (and expensive), but lapping a shellholder is cheap and doable.

I have one short shell holder in my kit of long comp shell holders.

 

[bigedp51]

If taking a few thousands off of a shellholder or die is radical or extreme, why do Redding and others make competition shellholders that vary in height to accomplish the same task? Barlow

I have a Czechoslovakian made Mauser .270 and the only way I can full length resize my .270 cases is with a shell holder with .003 removed from the top of the shell holder.

I never checked to see if I have a short chamber or a long resizing die, and I really didn't care. The shorter shell holder fixed the problem without any magic feeler gauges or headspace gauges.

Also please note that RCBS is the one who suggested lapping the shell holder to fix the problem.

 

[alamo_308]

If taking a few thousands off of a shellholder or die is radical or extreme, why do Redding and others make competition shellholders that vary in height to accomplish the same task? Barlow

Why indeed?
Simple.
I would just buy the proper height required, so I would accumulate a selection to choose from as needed, rather than permanently alter an existing one that I might very well need in its original spec in future.

 

[CatShooter]

If taking a few thousands off of a shellholder or die is radical or extreme, why do Redding and others make competition shellholders that vary in height to accomplish the same task? Barlow

Why indeed?
Simple.
I would just buy the proper height required, so I would accumulate a selection to choose from as needed, rather than permanently alter an existing one that I might very well need in its original spec in future.

You cannot alter a shell holder to make the case body longer - All of the Redding comp shell holders make the case body longer.