urbanrifleman
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Still debating, 223 vs 22ARC
- Thread starter KMW 1954
- Start date
urbanrifleman
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Hmmm. Well I checked my notes and I guess we shot 23.5 and it was 2890, I guess that's doable. No real pressure signs either.
I don't think you can have a meaningful conversation about the 22 ARC without specifying whether or not you're talking about a bolt gun or a gas system. In a gas gun, the ARC is worthless IMHO. The anemic pressure limitations from the AR bolt cut the legs out from under the cartridge's potential. It IS marginally better than a 5.56 cartridge, but the practical application of that benefit is questionable. If I were still shooting highpower, I'd be running some version of a 223ai with LC 5.56 brass out of a Wilson 1:8 barrel pushing 75gr ELDs over a stout charge of N540.
I also don't think you can say the 22 ARC was designed for anything specific. The 6.5G was supposed to have been designed as an AR based hunting cartridge, but I find it odd that Bill Anderson would have focused on a hunting cartridge instead of something designed for NRA Highpower competitions. Either way, the Grendel does give the AR the ability to hit harder at moderate distances, and that appeals to me as a hunter. The 6mm AR, 6mm AR Turbo, and 22 Grendel were just natural evolutions of the new case to see what and AR COULD do. I'm not terribly surprised by the standardization of the 6mm AR into the 6mm ARC because it does a decent job of maximizing the ARs potential with a 6mm projectile. With that said, I think it would have been better to revisit the 6mm TCU, but in the end its all about what the marketing department can sell, not about how well the cartridge can actually perform. The 22 ARC really highlights this because its a ballistic twin to the already introduced 224 Valkyrie which never really took off because it really doesn't have that much to offer over a 5.56 with the correct (custom) chamber. The fact remains that in an AR platform, a .223ai will keep up with both the Valkyrie and the 22 ARC while also providing a stronger bolt design.
In a bolt gun, the 22 ARC has some potential. When a handloader is able to make full use of the available volume, the 22ARC will certainly out run the 223AI, and will hang with a 22BR performance wise, and for those willing to step down 6.5G Starline brass, a person can afford to buy a decent supply for high volume varmint shooting. The problem is that there's not much load data for it when used in a bolt gun. For the competitive shooter, it makes a LOT more sense to go with a 22BR because its been around for a long time and there's lots of proven information on it where as with the 22 ARC handloaders are largely left to figure it out on their own. The 22 ARC will never be able to run with a 22-250 or 22 Creedmoor, but it also won't heat up or eat barrels as fast either. To me, it makes for a good intermediate varmint cartridge for handloaders. I don't think it was smart for Hornady to standardize the cartridge because they can't offer factory ammo for it at the higher pressures meaning that their factory ammo will always be a turd when it comes to performance. It would have been best to leave it as a wildcat since it really only makes sense for a handloader who's starting with Grendel brass. But new and shiny is always a good thing according to the marketing department....
I also don't think you can say the 22 ARC was designed for anything specific. The 6.5G was supposed to have been designed as an AR based hunting cartridge, but I find it odd that Bill Anderson would have focused on a hunting cartridge instead of something designed for NRA Highpower competitions. Either way, the Grendel does give the AR the ability to hit harder at moderate distances, and that appeals to me as a hunter. The 6mm AR, 6mm AR Turbo, and 22 Grendel were just natural evolutions of the new case to see what and AR COULD do. I'm not terribly surprised by the standardization of the 6mm AR into the 6mm ARC because it does a decent job of maximizing the ARs potential with a 6mm projectile. With that said, I think it would have been better to revisit the 6mm TCU, but in the end its all about what the marketing department can sell, not about how well the cartridge can actually perform. The 22 ARC really highlights this because its a ballistic twin to the already introduced 224 Valkyrie which never really took off because it really doesn't have that much to offer over a 5.56 with the correct (custom) chamber. The fact remains that in an AR platform, a .223ai will keep up with both the Valkyrie and the 22 ARC while also providing a stronger bolt design.
In a bolt gun, the 22 ARC has some potential. When a handloader is able to make full use of the available volume, the 22ARC will certainly out run the 223AI, and will hang with a 22BR performance wise, and for those willing to step down 6.5G Starline brass, a person can afford to buy a decent supply for high volume varmint shooting. The problem is that there's not much load data for it when used in a bolt gun. For the competitive shooter, it makes a LOT more sense to go with a 22BR because its been around for a long time and there's lots of proven information on it where as with the 22 ARC handloaders are largely left to figure it out on their own. The 22 ARC will never be able to run with a 22-250 or 22 Creedmoor, but it also won't heat up or eat barrels as fast either. To me, it makes for a good intermediate varmint cartridge for handloaders. I don't think it was smart for Hornady to standardize the cartridge because they can't offer factory ammo for it at the higher pressures meaning that their factory ammo will always be a turd when it comes to performance. It would have been best to leave it as a wildcat since it really only makes sense for a handloader who's starting with Grendel brass. But new and shiny is always a good thing according to the marketing department....
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urbanrifleman
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Great post.
Especially like the "shiny" comment. How true!!!
The vast majority of my customers want what makes sense, but every now and again I get the guy that "just wants something different" and will not listen to any other reasoning.
Well I did the 22 ARC for personal gratification and curiosity. What I wanted was 22" 223 bolt gun velocities from a 16" AR platform. Mostly as a Truck gun with slightly better performance on deer and feral hogs. So I picked up a Faxon Gunner 16" barrel and went to work. Well two things. The rifle gas on a 16" barrel is just right. However I had trouble using my Magnetospeed on it. Second I don't have on hand exactly the right powder to get top velocities. SMP763 is too fast. It makes accurate loads but tops out at 2640 fps with the 75 gr. Gold Dots and 2550 fps with the 80 gr. ELDM. BLC2 gets me to almost 2800 fps with either bullet. The 75 gr. Gold Dot from my 22" barreled Model Seven gets 2925 fps with 26.1 grains of LVR. It has a 9 twist so the longer bullets are not usable. The 88 gr. ELDM's at mag length stick pretty far into the powder room. I tried I4350 with them and got good accuracy but not sure what velocity as I gave up on trying to get speeds from the Magnetospeed. So my thoughts are it is more likely to equal 20 inch 5.56 AR speeds but can use the heavier bullets fed from the magazine.
I shoot 75g ELDMs at 3000fps with 24.7gn N540, Rem 7.5 and Lapua brass from a 223 wylde and 28"/8T Bartlein. Ran it up to 25.6gn at 3075fps before I saw pressure signs.
223 Wilde is what I wish my 223 bolt gun was. And 8 twist instead of 9. But it does a great job of being a varmint gun and occasional deer rifle.
That's pretty close to the load that I used to use for 600 prone. Out of my 20" RRA service rifle (also a 223 Wylde chamber, 1:8), I was maxing out at 2950, but that max charge happened to shoot pretty good also. Hard on brass, but good on scores...
In a ruger American gen 2 20” bbl. Using 28.5gr of varget I was running 80gr eldms 2930fps for a plinking load. Running 31.5gr cfe223 I was pushing them 3080fps for a hunting load. This is to fit in an ar mag so bullets were seated deep.
I’m having a 22arc built off a tikka when the barrel arrives. Smith is going to throat it out long so I should get more velocity than with the ruger.
Have you come to a conclusion yet? I would say the most difficult decision is decide on the action & the barrel length. Then All you will need is 1 barrel chambered in 22 ARC & another chambered in 6mm ARC. both fine choices. You will like both & find a need for another action B4 long.
Just my personal op..so it's really not worth much, but a 22 or 6 arc to me just doesn't make sense in a bolt action. It makes a whole bunch of sense in an ar15 platform where one can easily, very easily swap out the bolt, but to dedicate an entire bolt action system to a one off bolt face dimension that does not share much in common with other cartridges, you are kind of stuck.
In a bolt action there are better offerings than the arc cartridge whether one reloads or wishes to just use factory ammo.
In a bolt action there are better offerings than the arc cartridge whether one reloads or wishes to just use factory ammo.
Just shot my 223AI yesterday with 88ELDM, 450 primers and 28.1 grains of Leverevolution. 3150 fps no pressure signs. 1/2 moa groups at 700 yards. 9 1/2 moa come up from 100 yard 0. Remington 700 action, XCaliber 1:7 twist 28 inches.
I gather there is nothing wrong with the 6mm ARC whereas the same may not be said for one of the 223's. My vote would be to leave the 6mm ARC well enough alone. Rifle in 223 that is in need of a re-barrel may get the re- barrel.
Now that we have decided on the action, it is time to discuss what the rifle will feed reliably. 223 would be a sure thing though is the 22 ARC ruled out for that action? If cost is a factor just go 223 & there would be nothing wrong with that. Not sure what the 22 ARC will do for you that the 6mm ARC would not accomplish.
Seriously amused that this thread is still breathing. Also amazed how this has drifted completely off the original posted question. Everything remotely related to every 223, 22ARC and 6ARC but really not pertinent to the question.
Don't really care about anyone's perspective about what they perceive it was designed for or the use in a bolt rifle or semi auto.. That wasn't the question. Anyone that believes it is a waste of time in a bolt rifle, well good for you! There are plenty that I do not see the thrill. But I keep that to myself because a gun isn't meant for me to judge whether you like it or not or approve of it.
Sole intention of this rifle was for shooting from a bench at paper targets out to 300yds. Nothing more. To fill a desire I have to shoot those targets.....
"Not sure what the 22 ARC will do for you that the 6mm ARC would not accomplish."
Correct there is nothing wrong with the 6ARC I am shooting. it is staying as-is. I have a second one that the barrel was removed from and set aside. Now that league season is over I have time to "play" and put that barrel on another action that I already had. So the question was do I take that action and barrel it with a 22ARC or barrel it with a fast twist 223. The 223 Model 10 will be left alone for now.
Personally I see very little to differentiate the choice of either. Both will shot the same weight bullets and both will reliably use the same powder. Difference being the ARC will use slightly more powder. Either way both will be cheaper to shoot and practice with than the 6ARC!
Don't really care about anyone's perspective about what they perceive it was designed for or the use in a bolt rifle or semi auto.. That wasn't the question. Anyone that believes it is a waste of time in a bolt rifle, well good for you! There are plenty that I do not see the thrill. But I keep that to myself because a gun isn't meant for me to judge whether you like it or not or approve of it.
Sole intention of this rifle was for shooting from a bench at paper targets out to 300yds. Nothing more. To fill a desire I have to shoot those targets.....
"Not sure what the 22 ARC will do for you that the 6mm ARC would not accomplish."
Correct there is nothing wrong with the 6ARC I am shooting. it is staying as-is. I have a second one that the barrel was removed from and set aside. Now that league season is over I have time to "play" and put that barrel on another action that I already had. So the question was do I take that action and barrel it with a 22ARC or barrel it with a fast twist 223. The 223 Model 10 will be left alone for now.
Personally I see very little to differentiate the choice of either. Both will shot the same weight bullets and both will reliably use the same powder. Difference being the ARC will use slightly more powder. Either way both will be cheaper to shoot and practice with than the 6ARC!
True, but if you were expecting a more straight forward response to the original question, you shouldn't have asked it on an internet forum
LolTrue, but if you were expecting a more straight forward response to the original question, you shouldn't have asked it on an internet forum
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